Holy Hell, what a great topic! Peter, if you don't comment in this, I will start praying now for God to raise an Ebeneezer and drop it on you, and hither by, thoust grace will not come. Okay so I give a hundred votes to "The Happy Song" by Deleriou5?. This song falls into several of your categories Sara, but also one you failed to mention... one which is my biggest pet peeve of all. Songs that don't freakin rhyme! Does the writer think that because it's a worship song, it has the freedom to break the most basic rules of song? If this were any other type of music (i.e. not worship music), the sheet music wouldn't be worth sheet (as in the paper it's written on, wink wink). Ugh! Just looking at those lyrics... I hate this song for so many reasons. How is it not on your list?? What kind of band makes their name a question anyway? Attention worship leaders: for the love of God, and I mean that, don't ever play this song again! -Jared

Are we going to open this up to hymns, too? If so, I would have to mention Night With Ebon Pinion. To this day I do not know what the first line/title means.

Romans 16:19 says...

Beth- I dont know you, but i feel like I should give you a big kiss on the cheek. We sang that song at BSU one week and I kid you not the piano player stopped playing in the middle of the song because he was laughing so hard. It's like a cheer/scripture memorization/yell. WOW i hate that song. Another one to add is Peaceful Easy Feeling mixed with Amazing Grace. Both great song when played by themselves. Makes me want to poke my eyes out when i hear them together

I've also heard Amazing Grace to the tune of "Theme from Gilligan's Island."

yea, the peaceful easy feeling thing drives me crazy. i think we should just all chant and yell and play hand drums! :)

Jared, It's a top 5 list. Get it? If I put on all the songs I hated, you'd be reading for a week. But that song is definitely in the top 10. Since you brought up more categories, how about worship songs that sound exactly like 'real' songs. Every time I hear "Every Move I Make", I think "Centerfold" by the J. Guiles band. (Our lead guitarist plays the solo to "Centerfold" everytime we sing it, just to annoy me. Thank you, Bufe.)

Great topic Sara! I would like to add a category of songs with the word Shout in the title. Both "Shout to the Lord" and "Shout to the North" would probably make my top 5 list on the worst worship songs ever. Everytime I sing "Shout to the North" I feel as if I should turn my entire body that direction causing me to begin laughing hysterically at how stupid that would look. I would also like to mention my least favorite lyric from the song- "rise up church with broken wings"..what does that even mean?

lord i lift your name on high... i. cannot. stand. it. no. longer.

I Want to Know You (In The Secret) because lines like "I want to touch you, I want to see your face, I want to know You more," sound more like something I would sing to my girlfriend and not God. And last time those who saw the face of God died. (Ex 33:18-23)

These lists just make me feel old. I don't know any of these songs (except the Peaceful easy Grace one). They just don't write lyrics to Jesus songs like they did back in my day. Matt "Give me gas in my Ford, keep me truckin' for the Lord, truckin' til the break of day!" Sears

Dittos on "I could sing of your love forever." Actually, it's quite impossible to sing this song forever because nothing matches up in this song musically (too many words in the verses). "Lord i lift your name on high." Very annoying song, especially since you can play the bass line from The Steve Miller Band's "The Joker" to it... Lord I lift your name on high... Lord I love to sing your praises... I'm so glad you're in my life WREET-WROW!!

I'm still amused by the fact that I think I effectively killed the song "Your Will" after mocking in a Spring Break devotion. For those that don't remember, its the songs with lyrics that go: Your will (x 9) Oh lord, we long to do, your will. Doug

Good work. One more comment on "I Could Sing of Your Love Forever". As a friend of mine pointed out one time: "oh, I feel like dancin'... but the music in this song won't let me!" It's too slow, too soft; a gentle sway is about the best you could get - if you're going to talk about dancing, at least give us music with a rhythm that encourages dancing! I could think of some other songs to nominate, but as someone else wrote in a comment, if they were all up here we'd be reading forever.

Night With Ebon Pinion ebon pinion is "black wing" referring to the darkness that fell on the earth at the time of jesus death. brooded o'er the vale=it came over the valley.

Wow, thanks for the explanation. But Jesus died in the afternoon (the darkness at his death was from noon until 3) and the song says NIGHT with ebon pinion. What gives?

I thought ebon pinion was Latin. "Ebon" - Pretty "Pinion" - Weird But I'm no expert...

You forgot: We will dance on the streets that are golden. - I'm sorry that song sounds so feminate and Gay. Hop on The Bus Mercy is Falling Great God Any Third Day song sung in praise and worship. Worship leaders can't sing the song, they have to imitate the 'drunken and slurred' voice of Third Day's lead singer. And amen on the 'river songs' they value experiences over Scriptures. BTW, Amazing Grace does sound really cool when sung to the music of Purple Haze by Jimi Hendrix.

My peeve is any song that makes not sense biblically... "God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” Singing about "dancing in a river while hugging the creator of the universe that sings over me because I'm so special that Jesus will hug me forever while I imagine that angels' wings are brushing my tears away with a la la hoo yah peaceful easy feeling" seems to me to make a mockery of worship. We ought not worship for our own pleasure, but rather for His. Anything else is idolotry.

True. Then of course worship isn't just singing at all. Biblically, we should be singing to God to praise him, yes, but also to build each other up (cf. Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16). Songs which don't have good theology, make no sense, or are just plain difficult don't allow us to do either. Experiential songs just work up people with emotions that come from the music rather than from what they feel about God. It just leads to people thinking they're "experiencing" God when they're singing, when theologically that's nonsense. That said there's no accounting for different tastes. I like "Lord I lift your name on high" :)

I hate any worship song that uses instruments... :)

It was nearly 10 years ago when Kelly Jackson & Rob Siemer wrote and distributed among the folks at Truman State (then Northeast Missouri State) a hotly debated list of the top 10 worst worship songs that were sung at CCF at the time. I always hoped that list would be revived with newer songs and a forum for dissing them--but after the stir the first list caused, Rob & Kelly were both a bit gun shy. So thank you, Sara, for making a dream nearly 10 years in the making for me a reality. My top 5 hated worship song categories: 1. Songs sung among white people that mention dancing: These songs almost universally induce that wacky bob & sway that says, "I'm singing that I'm dancing, but I'm not actually dancing, so to remedy the situation I will awkwardly alternate the bending of my knees to generate body movement." (The bridge of "I Could Sing of Your Love Forever" is an example.) 2. Songs that, for continuity's sake, should be split into two or more songs: In these songs, the various components of the song are so unrelated in subject, rhythm, meter, and/or melody that when listening to the finished song I can't help but think the writer had a notebook where he/she jotted down song ideas and one day decided that none of the songs would ever get finished so he/she just slapped them all together under the convenient titles of verse, chorus, and bridge. ("Trading My Sorrows" is the classic example.) 3. Songs where only the worship leader can follow the rhythm and/or melody because the songs are more conducive to performance than to corporate worship experience: These songs can be great songs of themselves, so it's more a criticism of their choice as worship songs than a criticism of the actual songs. (Most Third Day & Waterdeep songs fall into this category for me.) 4. Songs sung as worship that are written in first person from the perspective of God: Again, many of these songs are songs I like, but I don't like singing them in worship primarily because I am not God and feel rather awkward singing in worship to Him "as" Him. (Rich Mullins "That Where I Am"--if that's the official title of the song--is a good example of this: a song I like to sing in my car or walking down the street to remind me of God's presence & promises, but not one I like to sing in corporate worship.) 5. Songs that make sweeping generalizations about the state of those singing: When I get to a line in a song that makes a statement about how I'm feeling or supposed to be feeling, but does not correspond with reality, I'm not quite sure what I'm supposed to do with that. I guess this is part of a broader category that I don't feel should be banned altogether, but do feel should be quite limited in the worship experience, and that is songs about us in general. I'm no worship expert, but I'm pretty sure that worship is supposed to be about God and maybe slightly about how we relate to God, but definitely not about us. And my biggest pet peeve in this category is songs that claim to be about God, but are primarily about us. ("Heart of Worship" is probably my most hated song in this category because I don't like singing "I'm sorry Lord for the thing I've made it" when I don't generally feel this way and additionally, who's this song about? Oh yeah, it's about me and about how I'm coming back and about how sorry I am.) 6 (bonus) Songs that replace one word and create a whole new verse: I hate these songs because oftentimes, especially if I'm in another room listening, I have no idea what they're actually singing. ("Holiness" is the best example because almost every time I hear a group of people singing that song, it pretty much sounds like, "Nana-ness, Nana-ness is what I long for/ Nana-ness is what I need..."; and on that song, what's with the key change on "brokenness"? Is that the high point?) I could go on and on but I really should be working. Beth "skittles" Siemer

I'd like to see Rob's list. I may not know all of the songs (I was in junior high when he wrote it), but it would still be fun. I agree with most of what you said, but I wouldn't put 'I'm trading my sorrows' into category 2. I think it holds together thematically pretty well. I might place it in the bad song category: songs that repeat 2 words 40 times and call it a chorus. Doug's favorite, 'Your will' would also fit in there. In number four, I hate singing "For I am the Lord your God" in the song "Isaiah 43".

The worship song I always hated the most was "as the deer panteth for the water." yes, I know that's right out of the bible, but it always gave me the mental image of a stupid cartoon deer panting after God. What kind of word is panteth anyway? The rest of the song is pretty weak, too.

Well i have found my home. I didnt realise this level of cynicism existed out of my own head. Three further thoughts - what is it with the nondescript Guitar chord at the start of most Redman and Hughes songs is it the signpost for the opening of a bland track. And what about this lyric 'my lovers breath is sweetest wine' - now that may be scripture (I dont know to be honest) and it prob makes sense in bible but that does not make any sense its mixed metaphors, weak imagery and just awful. And if you are ever at heaton baptist church, newcastle at harvest time then you have to go to hear the Harvest Rap. A middleaged man will get up and to some phat bass rap about harvest time (Praise him for the corn, praise him for the wheat, praise him for the frass that grows beneath my feet). I collapsed with laughter - people thought it was the holy spirit coming upon me. They were laying hands and everything. And we wonder why we cant fill the pews - comedy like that should be publicised. Still kepp up the good work, its admirable - controversial one but I wish Delirious would stop shouting to the darned North im sick of it. And im spent.

Oh and I forgot the bastard fusing of the tune to Auld Lang Syne's tune to the lords prayer. For his next trick Cliff Richard is gluing the front end of a cow to the arse of a rat.

Ah a place to vent! In no certain order 1) "You Alone" by David Crowder, the supposed "future" of CCM-praise. If so, I'm scrambling to the nearest Fundy Baptist church in no time. The lyrics "I bow all of my down at your feet" and "You Alone are God" are fine, I guess (but some we've heard a thousand times before). However, stuck in the middle like an unsightly birthmark is the key-change and the chanting of "I'm alive!" no less than 16 times (or more if your ring...I mean praise leader has a death wish). It has no bearing of what happened before or happens next (which is just a repeat of the chorus), and it seems to exist simply for pure emotional manipulation. When the band plays it, I usually take my pulse and show to my friend to prove I am, indeed, alive. 2) Whatever that "Yes Lord" song is. Shoot me before they do it again on the radio or in concert...I mean church. 3) "In the Secret" by whoever, made famous by the band formerly known as Sonicflood. You can sing "Semi-charmed Life" to the chorus. I highly recommend it during one of the final times it is being repeated. 4) "Breate" by Michael W Smith. Not only for it's "I'm desparate for you" line repeated over and over, but for every band that used the "The Air I breate" line and the "I'm desparate for you" lines. Quit being desparate, He's with you already! 5) I think it's Newsong, but there's a song on the radio that simply has the chorus of "Yay, God!" I'm fearing the first time it graces the overheads.

Yikes! Sara, you've created a monster! You've gone from reluctantly admitting some cynicism on your part to drawing some hard core cynics, including the latest morbid post by one David "Allen" Poe, who in a post on worship songs he does not like, somehow manages to make 2--count them, 2--references to DYING. When I was your age, worship song criticism was pure, heartfelt, and constructive. I think. That was a long time ago. But who can forget when "A Mighty Fortress" first came out? You should have read the postings then! People were clamoring left and right: "Why no mention of indulgences?" "Isn't the pope our fortress?" "Lots of words rhyme with 'purgatory'--he could have used it if he really wanted to." Ah, yes. Those were the days. But if there's one thing Christians of all denominations can agree upon, it's that "Trading My Sorrows" is the worst worship song written of all years ending in "A.D." About a half a dozen different rules for writing bad worship songs can be formulated from that song alone. If "Trading My Sorrows" were Gospel scholarship, it would be the Q hypothesis. It's that foundational to the topic. When I first heard the song, I thought it would be fun to have a group of sopranos singing in the background of the chorus, "A - firm - a - tive," all drawn out and such. Well, before I got that far in thinking about the song, I had a different thought that was something like this: "Is this a real song? Get outta here! Really? This is an actual song? This isn't a joke?" My thought patterns continued like that for about the first 6 times through the song. See, it takes about 13 times to get the so-called "melody" of the chorus. I imagine the composer wrote the chorus as a way of compensating for the bridge, or vice versa. Note to worship song writers: Instead of writing a bridge that is virtually impossible to sing with any sort of rhythm AND writing the chorus with such a simplistic rhythm that many non-human living creatures could do a pretty good job on it, try just aiming for the fat middle part of the bell curve of singability for both the verse, chorus, and--ocassionally--the bridge. All that said, there were a few songs that I think got a bad rap in some of the previous posts. E.g., is it really that bad to be desparate for God? It's just a way of talking about longing for more of God, eh? And dismissing outright all songs with "Shout" in the title? Again, seems a little extreme. And "river" seems like a pretty good image for God's love or Jesus' healing or a number of things. It is biblical, and perhaps the ambiguity of the image is what makes it work (for those of us for whom it does). AND, I admit "Lord, I Life Your Name On High" has been sung, well, a lot. But it was once a new song, and a powerful and effective one in its day. Probably still is to a lot of people. So "age" should not automatically bring a song down. Which is why "Trading My Sorrows" is such a great bad song. I found it to be quite dreadful the very first time I heard it. Same was true for "I Could Sing Of Your Love Forever." I learned that around a campfire w/ no lyric sheets. The guitarists were like, "Oh, there's this great new song. Does anyone know it?" No one did. "OK, well it's easy..." They then proceeded to speak the verses to us. "Got it?" Uh, yeah, I guess so. So then they played. Boom. 2.37 seconds later, they're done. I'm sitting there thinking, "Did they really just sing all of those words in that short of a time period?" I was still on "mountain" when they hit the chorus. Oh, I see. This is a FAST song. Yeah, those are easier with overheards. If there was another verse to that song, it might be OK. Anyway, figured this was more productive than most things I could be doing at 1:00 in the morning when I can't sleep. That's my 2 cents for now. I might write more later. Bye! -Rob

Good grief, you should hear me when our church goes instrumental. We've got handbells, and it's quite wonderful. The Bells. From the bells, bells, bells, bells, Bells, bells, bells-- From the jingling and the tinkling of the bells. Er..um...anyway. The "desparation" thing is just an oddly weird thing. One guy does it, and it's the latest fad. I guess I likened it to being "Desparate" for a meal with everything laid out for you while you continue the lament. Ever eat while saying you were desparate to eat? I guess that's the way I see it. Now I've got a reputation to keep up. I should just sing some Southern Gospel songs. Most of them seem about death as well...but more in an escapist way. -DP

(Rob, great to hear from you. Congratulations on the job.) I agree with David that 'desparate' songs are some sort of fad that doesn't always work. I don't agree with David when he suggests that desparation isn't something we should express because it's so easy . . . easy to what? To experience God? To be confident of his grace and presence? Not for me. Sometimes desparation is what I feel (which is better than my characteristic indifference). David, first of all, welcome. Please feel free to say what you think and what you believe, even if it comes out as a rant. I'm happy to think that you feel comfortable here. I would like to hear you elaborate a bit more on why you don't feel desparate. Maybe I'm missing something.

I like ambiguous secular songs that get turned into worship songs. Recall, for example, Vertical Horizon: "He's everything you want/need/etc..." And Creed too. Creed should just release their old stuff as worship music and sell another 500,000 copies easy. Since Kelly Jackson apparently has some past with this, I'm going to see if she'll join in. Rob, Beth... just give in and start a blog together. We need to hear from you more! -Jared

I can't say that I've read one thing written here that I disagree with. It seems that "worship" songwriters are putting out shallow, emotional, and doctrineless songs that are running rampant around the world. Some songs touch me very deeply like "Famous One", a simple idea that is focused on Him. The thing that REALLY is starting to make me sick is all of the remakes of songs that are already out. I mean, how many times are we going to hear different renditions of "I Could Sing Of Your Love", or "Let My Words Be Few", etc. (The list is a mile long.) I don't know if anyone agrees with me, but I really feel like the Christian music industry is stealing money from the "flock" by putting out remakes of already used up worship songs. And yet, people still buy this stuff. Is anyone inspired to write new music anymore? If I hear one more Michael W. Smith "worship" album... I better stop now.

often i would rather hear an old "re-used" song than a new worship song. new music does not equal good.

What about the abysmally bad Come now is the time to worship. A veil of dullness drops over worship leaders and they choose that dreadful song to open with - hmmm how irrelevent is the church.

Great topic... and it's way up there on Google. ;-) It's unfortunate that so many people shy away from honestly critiquing things in the church, especially Christian music. Has anyone ever read a negative review of a Christian CD in a publication? I sure haven't. Isn't it good to spur each other on towards worship that is more meaningful, more profound, and richer? Aren't we to speak the TRUTH in love? Another point I'd like to propose: these songs, like almost any piece of music written in popular styles, aren't meant to last very long. Maybe a few should endure...but the whole point is for them to catch the mood of the day, to be instantly appealing. That's pop music. It's only natural that worship songs written in this style should wear out. It's too bad so many churches have a hard time retiring the ones they use so much. My personal nomination is (and I know this is a favorite for a LOT of people), "Shout to the Lord." The chorus just doesn't seem to have any continuity of thought in it. And can someone please tell me what "Forever I'll stand" means? Besides that it seems like an eternity when we sing the chorus over and over again? For a good example of the problem with rivers: "Shine Jesus Shine... Blaze, Spirit, blaze... Flow, river, flow, flood the nations with grace and mercy.." A new trinity: the River, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Huh?? As a general comment, I try very hard, when I get the opportunity to choose worship music, to pick songs that speak in corporate terms: "We, Our, Us." The whole reason we come together to sing is because there is something more meaningful about community. For this reason, I dislike worship songs the more individualistic they are. The songwriter's instinct is to write things that are very personal, and many people want to sing songs that express emotions, which are by nature very personal. So it's a very difficult balance.

I googled on this topic because I was talking to my son who is a pop/folk musician and he was reminiscing about bad worship songs from when he was living at home attending our church. (He mentioned "Oh, I believe in Jesus, I believe he is the son of God, I believe he died and rose again, I believe he paid for us all..." his comment being that the depth of the theology ought to be mirrored in the melody, whereas the melody here is extremely sing-songy and trivial.) When he's not on the road he now attends a church with a classical music/organist/hymn focus for worship. I was trying to tell him that the current crop are worse than the ones he was bringing up--at least they had some theological content. But I suddenly blanked out on the ones that make me squirm and writhe every week, so today I'm googling, thinking someone has surely made some kind of "Worst Worship Songs Ever" list. Your list is fantastic and contains some of the ones that really make me squirm, musically and/or lyrically speaking. Totally agree about songs where the lyrics suppose that we are dancing. I just don't get it. I never knew "Trading My Sorrows" had actions. Oh my goodness. Thank God for that mercy. Our worship leader brought that song in frequently right when I was going through very debilitating pain from a sudden, severe onset of a disease that for all I knew at the time was going to leave me crippled for life. The bouncy little, 'I'm trading my sorrow-ows, I'm trading my pai-ai-ain, I'm laying them down for the joy of the Lord" was demoralizing to me at the time, and if I could have walked out, I would have. I felt whole thing trivialized the difficulty of responding to suffering with faith. Right when coming to church was the hardest because I scarcely could move and my faith was being challenged...and I couldn't believe that others going through suffering of various kinds in the congregation didn't have the same reaction. Another nominee: "Coming Back to the Heart of Worship". Couldn't the writer dig down and lyricize better than "I'm sorry Lord for the _thing_ I've made it, when it's all about you, it's all about you, Jesus" Is that lyric-writing? And while it might have meaning to worship leaders, I think the rank and file worshiper might be going, "huh?" during this song. I just went back and read everyone's comments. Wow, it is so good to know that I'm not writhing in agony in the pew alone, and that my reaction to these songs is shared. So how do you cope? How do you worship when part of your brain is going, "this can't be happening!!!"

To Kathy and everyone else: Thanks for your honesty. It has been really refreshing (to use a cliche and, let's face it, an over-used worship song word) to hear your similar complaints about worship music. Nate's comment, "It's only natural that worship songs written in this style should wear out. It's too bad so many churches have a hard time retiring the ones they use so much" made a lot of sense to me. Good insight. As for Kathy's question, "How do you cope?" I don't know if I have a legitimate answer. I only know that cynicism has its place, i.e, here, and the days when I am feeling particularly cynical in church are the days I feel most bad about myself. I usually just focus on the fact that the majority of people in my congregation don't analyze things to death, and they are getting closer to God through these songs. Their collective seeking after God motivates me to do the same, even if I can never fully get over my hangups in a worship service. And, at times, I think God finds my cynicism moderately amusing. He did make my brain, after all.

Now I have a few minutes, I wanted to probe the "desparate" issue in a nutshell, and why I recommend the song to be banishined to the land of wind and ghosts. "Desparate" is a form of the word "dispair," having lost all hope or showing a recklessness due to depair (i.e. "A Desparate attempt") I guess I don't exactly see this as an accurate description of my relationship with Christ. I am no longer in desparation or despair; The Lord has promised to never leave or foresake. If this were the song of a sinner first believing ... maybe. But why would there be a desparation now? Here's here with us already! Maybe "I Need Thee Every Hour" would be more relevant. Or, maybe, a reminder that he already IS with us, no matter how far away we feel from him. And I don't remember suggesting anything about things being "easy," unless suggesting it was easy to just copy the latest worship catch-phrase (I've heard the "I'm desparate for you" line in a few songs now). I'm lost on how that got credited to me.

A quick trip to dictionary.com showed me that your were right. I think the song uses the word to mean "I have no hope without God and I need him badly," but desperate is probably poor word choice. I was assuming this meaning when I interpreted you to mean that faith was easy. I'm sorry about that. Generally, I also try to be fairly precise with word meanings, but I was ignorant on this one. You make a good point.

I have three words: "Dancing on Injustice." I love Delirious?, but I feel that Injustice would be better dealt with by a brute squad than some can-can dancers. My dad and I were brainstorming about the type of dancing the song was talking about, and we came up with some of these: 1. Moshing on injustice 2. Rhumba on injustice 3. Waltz on injustice 4. Square dance on injustice 5. Breakdance on injustice

"You're my all, you're the best You're my joy, my righteousness And I love you, Lord." This song should be sung in a medley with the "My buddy and me" theme song. Seriously, "you're the best"? I can't say anything that would make that funnier. I generally avoid singing songs that proclaim emotions I never feel, even though I secretly wish to sing them wholeheartedly. I sing the 'desperate' lines only because I know it's true. Etymology aside, I use words how I want to, as does everyone. I am sure 'desperate' meant something different in Old English, and in Old French, and in Latin, Indoeuropean, etc. Usage dictates grammar, not dictionaries. To keep the discontinuity of this post going (I hope no one turns what I'm writing into a worship song)-- New category: Essays set to music. These are the songs that try to make up for thirty years of theological superficiality in a three minute sweep through the table of contents of a handy systematic theology textbook. There's a difference between depth and rambling, and don't write a worship song until you know what that difference is. Side note: I led the song "Your Will" at a Wed night CCF service about a week after Doug's tirade against it, just for spite. And people cried tears of spite as they sang. After the service, we shot Doug's ferret out of a cannon into Thousand Hills Lake. Which brings me to Caedmon's Call: Their songs sound cool, but as with all songs with obscure imagery, I have to pray for a sort of "interpretation of tongues." Metaphor: I love ambiguity and imagery, but when you ask people what 'river' means in a particular song and get 27 different answers pulled out of butts of varying theological persuasions, you begin to say, "This is a bunch of crap." [Pause for groan.] Part of singing as a community has to mean that we have some cohesion of meaning. Solos: Cohesion is also threatened when 4 mediocre singers spread around the room half sing the tricky "solo" part to the repeat of the verse on "Shout to the Lord." I sometimes sing it just to see what sort of personal benefit a person receives. According to my research, the comedic benefit is not enough to counteract the numbing effect of almost ten years of momentum behind this juggernaut. We either all need to agree take this song down in a coordinated assault, or assent to the masses and sing as we try to remember if we left the stove on. (If I did, my house might blow up. But then there would be a valid reason to run from the church screaming.) Finally: Isn't it ironic that if God really answered me when I sang "Trading My Sorrows," we would never sing that song again? Yes, Lord. Yes, Lord. Yes, yes, Lord. Amen.

Interesting...I didn't have time to read all the comments, but last night I was thinking to myself at a worship service this song may be self defeating. Before I tell why, let me disclaim that I like this song, but none-the-less it has its huge flaws. I don't remember the name but the lyrics state that there aren't enough words to tell how much we love you God, so check our hearts. I was wondering if God really checked out hearts, would he find much love at all, let alone a love that our words cannot express? The other observation, and quickly I note again I didn't read all of the posts, it seems that we have a bunch of cynics (myself included) holing up here on this board, and being one I find that the songs generally brought up are "favorites" in the evangelical world. I wonder how much dissatisfaction with song comes from its popularity and a cynic's natural tendency to rebel. How many of us (because I am surely one) used to love singing these songs and belt out "oh I feel like dancing". Maybe none of you...but something to think about. Just remember the time is of worship and should be done in community. Romance songs don't make sense most of the time either (and we could probably turn most of these songs to a significant other rather than God), but we should at least have a heart of worship rather than disgust at our own humanity (i.e. the lack of talent in our worship writers). The last comment is if we worship Biblically (i.e. like a whole book of worship is outlined, the Psalms) we should have a ton more songs of lament and even of question, but most if not all resolve with a continued trust in God and a desire to continue to love him.

Sara, you're famous: http://ardententhusiast.blogspot.com/2004_05_01_ardententhusiast_archive.html The movement has begun!

I have to agree with most of what was posted, but want to add to the list. First, the ones that most annoy me are ones where I have to ask if the singer actually knows what they are asking for. "Um... You do realize that to 'see God high and lifted up' is enough to make a priest ministering in the temple say 'I am a man of unclean lips', right? Why do we want to do that?" Or my personal favorite, "Fall on this room like you did on the temple in Solomon's day." Am I the only one who remembers that the priests couldn't offer sacrifices in the temple because God's glory was there. Second, the low lyrical quality of most of what we sing in church irritates me. If I would be embarassed to write verse of similar quality for a girl, then it definitely is not fit for the Creator of the Universe. Finally, to answer the question on Ebon Pinion. It does refer to black wing as someone mentioned. But the song is actually a discussion of the Garden of Gethsemane which happened at night.

Does anyone agree that Chrisitans like a song and then play it to death - My Jesus my Shelter - they ruin it for all.

great site! my two cents: 1. songs with "la la" or "na na" or other filler words. i end up just staring at the ground. it cracks up my wife. 2. "jesus is my girlfriend" songs. already alluded to earlier. in these songs, you substitute your significant other's name and it makes for a great make-out song. just get barry white to sing it. 3. for the 70 x 7th time, how can anyone be honest in worship when they sing "oh i feel like dancing"? no one feels like dancing! the whole worship team just mellowed out for this part of the song. of course everone knows "it's foolishness". isn't it great God has blessed people with the gift of humor? i laughed for a while reading some of these comments.

Greetings, Sara and company. Sara, I've been wanting to post again, but I had to time it just right so that I can either claim part of the credit or disclaim part of the blame depending on how this turns out. If your fame increases, and you get to make the rounds on Christian talk shows and people write nice books about you, I want you to be able to say that I was one of the foundational posters. But if things take a turn for the worse, like if you get excommunicated or worse, I want to be able to tell powerful church leaders--and perhaps even God himself, if it comes to that--that I never knew you. This seemed like a good time to post in order to have it both ways like that. I've actually been wanting to post for a while, because I think I might have something somewhat constructive to say. I'll get to that in a minute. But first, a couple of personal notes: Jared, I will never start a blog, no matter how much you, my one fan, clammor for it. Danny, I looked for my nearly 10 year old list of worst worship songs, and can't find it. It might be hiding somewhere. We're moving soon, so maybe it will turn up. Maybe it's under the microwave, or someplace like that. I think some of the songs on it were fairly unique to CCF, so I'm not sure how many people will say things like, "Oh, yeah, I know that one." I can remember a couple that may have had wider usage, though. For example, there was "Knit Our Hearts Together." It goes like this: Knit our hearts together / like Jonathon and David / Knit our hearts together / like Ruth and Naomi / Make us one, make us one / like the Father and the Son / There is no division in love. Repeat until nausea sets in. One clear rule from this song is apparent: Not all Scripture references make for good worship songs. Sorry, it's just true. If I were at all musical myself, I would write a worship song to the words of Leviticus 11, i.e. the OT food prohibitions. Wouldn't that be a hoot? Can anyone come up with a melody to "The coney (that is, the hyrax or rock badger), though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is unclean for you." Yeah, so, just because Ruth and Naomi had their hearts knit together just like we would like to have our hearts knit together (not literally, of course), doesn't mean that either the name "Ruth" or "Naomi" is especially evocative or poetic sounding in a worship song--even though it's Scriptural. Another one on that old list was "Holy, Holy, Holy." Not the classic hymn. This "Holy, Holy, Holy" was a veerrrry slllloooooow song. It went something like this: "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord / Holy is the Lord, God almighty / Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord / Holy is the Lord, God almighty / Who was, and is, and is to come / Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord" Now replace "Holy" with "Worthy" and sing it all again. Now replace "Holy is" with "Glory to"--I think. It might have been something else. Now sing the first verse again, as a dramatic closer of sorts. Did I mention that this is a slllooowww song? Obviously, I can't sing it in a post, but I can tell you that I just sang a verse, and it took a full minute. It seemed like 10. As I think back to the day, I distinctly remember 2 thoughts coming to mind every time we sang it. The first one would hit me about half way through the first verse, and it was "I can't believe we still have 2 more verses of this." (I usually forgot the repeating of the first verse.) The second was, "Could this possibly be the melody of the creatures in Revelation 4?" Maybe if they get sleepy or bored, I guess. This is a long shot, I know, but if anyone knows the Catholic lullaby--I mean "hymn"--"Peace Is Flowing Like A River" then you've got some idea of what "Holy, Holy, Holy" is like. Of course, what would a "Worst Worship Songs" list be without "Ha la la la la la le lu jah"? This, I now know, is a kids song, supposedly fun for those type of people. So it's hard to be too harsh about it. But we sang it at our college ministry! "Bump another rump, bump a rump next to ya"????? Yup. I like to think of that as our little way of convincing seekers that we were, in fact, a cult. Those three were all on the old list. One that would have made it was "All You Works of God." I don't remember too well how it goes, but the verses are calls to worship directed at--you guessed it--all the works of God. For example, "sun and moon, bless your maker." Every time we sing it, I can't help but picture the worship leader holding the mike out towards the congregation and saying, "Just the leaves now! OK, now the grass! That's right, that's right! Now let's hear the dew!" On to more recent material to which I can respond. I'd like to start off on an agreeable note--you know, to build up our little community of cynics here. So, I will state, once again, the one thing that all Christians can agree upon: "Trading My Sorrows" is the crappiest piece of crap ever crapped in the name of worship songs. Moving on, but remaining agreeable: Peter, good move pulling out the "You're the best" line. I can't help but do that weird fist-pumping motion every time I get to that line. Imagine a slowed-down right hook to the body of no one in particular, timed perfectly with the singing of "best." Remaining agreable: Peter, you wrote, "I generally avoid singing songs that proclaim emotions I never feel, even though I secretly wish to sing them wholeheartedly." I agree. You do do that. Remaining agreable: I agree with Beth's categories, and would add a couple, some of which have been mentioned, some only described or alluded to. 1. Secular Songs or Melodies Turned Into Worship Songs. I know this is how it used to be. Pub songs would get re-lyricized and turn up in the church. That day has passed, I'm afraid, and now it just rings of unoriginality. It is the musical version of tweaking secular logos and turning them into Christian t-shirts. Combining "Amazing Grace" w/ "Peaceful Easy Feeling"? Isn't he talking about having sex in the second one? How did this happen? What worship leader was thinking, "You know, amazing grace is good and all, but I wish I could come up with a better way of describing how I feel about God's grace. I know! It's like I feel after I've fornicated! Isn't there an Eagles song about that?" Or the Gilligan's Island fiaso? Again, it's fun to play, "What Were They Thinking?" Can we even imagine? "I sure do like those words to Amazing Grace. I just wish I could find a melody that was more timeless and reverent. (flips to Gilligan's Island) Hey, wait a second..." I have heard "What's Up?" by Four Non-Blondes used as a worship song. The lyrics were slightly altered (recall the t-shirt comparison). Is this the best that Christians could come up with? I mean, I know it's a classic and all (I think it even made it onto "Four Non-Blondes Greatest Hits") but does that song capture something that no Christian could at least re-create? Maybe if the artist at least professes to be Christian there are a couple of songs that could make the transition ("40" by U2 comes to mind). But how would Christians feel if secular bands started taking classic worship songs and changing the words to make them about sex? 2. La La or Na Na Songs. Thanks for mentioning it, person who's name I can't read right now because my computer is blocking out that line of text for some reason. I would add "oh oh" songs, as well. We used to sing "Praise Song" by Third Day with an "oh oh" verse, or maybe it was a bridge. Either way, it never seemed very worshipful. I'll never forget turning around and seeing two of my best friends creating their own hand motions: large "O's" with their arms, either overhand or underhand, but intentionally trembling as they were doing it, a la Hans and Frans from SNL. Amazingly, I kept a straight face long enough to walk up to them and pretend to rebuke them, saying, "Hey, I'm trying to worship here," but then I lost it, and all three of us busted up. 3. Songs with "Ruth" and "Naomi" in Them. Well, enough of being agreable. Here is my list of "Categories of Songs Wrongly Considered to Be Indicators of Bad Worship Songs." 1. River songs. Peter, I've said it before and I'll say it again, you're out to sea with this river hang up of yours. Don't get me wrong: I still think you're a Christian, and I still want to meet for coffee tomorrow, but you're up the creek on this one. There just aren't THAT many possibilities for what "river" can mean. In any given river song, 90% percent of the congregation would probably say that it means "healing," "power," "love," or "forgiveness." These are all pretty close. They're all "Christian things." It's not like this guy thinks it symbolizes lust, and this guy the inner healing of Buddha, and that guy is thinking about a river of beer. I'd say that most people are on the same general page, and I'd say that's enough. In fact--and this is radical--the ambiguity is what makes it work. Maybe I'm thinking the river is God's forgiveness of a particular sin. Maybe you're thinking it's God's empowering you to glorify him. Fine. The notions of river are different enough to be intensely personal, but similar enough to be intensely communal (especially given we're all singing the same song). Long live river songs! 2. Songs that Have Been Overplayed. People, it's not the song's fault. I agree with Ed Lawrence, here. Some songs just get played to death. But as responsible critics, we need to be able to step back and ask ourselves, "Is it really the song?" I've already defended "Lord, I Life Your Name On High," and I'm prepared to defend a handful of others, if need be. 3. Songs that Are Allegedly Over-Individualistic. OK, I'm stepping into a minefield here, I know. But a couple of people have said as though it is a given that worship is all about community. Everyone grab a paper bag and get ready to breathe into it if needed, but I'm going to suggest here that it is not ONLY about community. There is an individual aspect to worship. I do not believe that there is anything inherently wrong or unbiblical about singing a song with a singular first person pronoun. Furthermore, the "worship is all about community" mentality is an overreaction, an overswinging of the pendulum away from wrong view that worship is ONLY about the individual. Here's the deal: we (by this I mean westerners, Americans especially) live in what is generally an overly-individualistic culture. This has been reflected in the often exclusive singing of individualistic songs. But I am not prepared to just toss out all those songs. Now, there are songs that are a little too personally detailed. Beth mentioned her problem with singing "I'm sorry for the thing I've made it." But that's not the same thing. All I'm saying is let's not overcompensate the other way. Let's shoot for the middle. 1-2 "I" songs for every 2-4 "we" songs seems like a pretty good ratio. I think the Psalms are a good example of a mixture of these--they are not all "we". Some are "I", and are we sure that the Hebrews never used any of the "I" Psalms for corporate worship? Related to this, I would not go so far to say that worship is not about us. It's not ONLY about us, of course, and I would say it's not chiefly about us, but if it's ONLY about God, and NOT AT ALL about us, then what the heck are we doing there? Why don't we just play a worship CD and call it a day? A better, more challenging approach would be to ask, "In what way is worship about us? In what way is it about God?" The same could be asked about individual songs. But I don't know of any songs that are so much about "us" that they are not at all about "God." Even "I'm sorry for the thing I've made it," though not a great worship song, in my opinion, is still about God to a large degree. Allow me to end on what may be the most constructive thing I have to say. My biggest problem with a lot of worship songs is that the writers don't seem to have an idea of good lyrics as being an objective state. They do for other people's songs. But not for what they write. Let me explain. I dabble in poetry and lyrics a bit. If someone came up behind me while I was writing and said, "Hey, that line kind of sucks. You should change it." I'd probably be like, "It's really none of your business." Well, actually, I'd probably listen to what they said and consider it. But if I disagreed, I'd be like, "It's none of your business." I usually write poems for my own expression. If I let someone read them, I'm hoping that they connect on some level, and can relate. But if I'm writing a worship song, the whole point is FOR PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO CONNECT. It's not supposed to be about, "Hey, here's some insight into my walk with God." That's what poems are for. Worship songs can start with that. But the writer, in this setting, must be humble enough to submit his writing to others before taking up valuable community worship time with what may essentially be nothing more than a journal entry. I get the feeling that a lot of worship writers are like, "This is mine, it's personal and heartfelt. Who are you to critique it?" That's fine if it's a poem. You can be subjective about a poem. But you have to be objective about worship songs. You have to let people say, "That just doesn't work for me." If the community is going to sing it, then the community should shape it. Sometimes a worship leader introduces a song by saying, essentially, "This is meaningful to me, so I hope it is to you." And I want to say, "Maybe you should have checked that out a bit, eh? Maybe asked around? And not just your keyboardist or your yes-man on the drums." There are a whole bunch of worship songs that I've sung about which I've thought, "If they had just handed that to a high school English teacher for a read over, it could have been 10x better." The worst worship songs? "Could Have Been Songs." Songs that could have been great worship songs if the worship writer had allowed himself to step out of his subjective attachment for a few minutes, even just to ask, "Hey, are there any lines or images in here that just don't work for you?" But then we probably wouldn't have this fun website. And I wouldn't be able to say, in closing, "God does all things well. Just look at my life." -Rob

I don't think that's a very nice way to talk about high school English teachers, Rob. The idea of a secular artist stealing a Christian artist's song seems hilarious to me, especially a worship song. Very funny. This is only minorly related, but my father one time helped write a hymn. He was a worship leader and I believe it was the pastor who also co-wrote this song... anyway, they wrote it and submitted it to some hymnal publisher. Here are the lyrics, imagine them accompanied by a very brutal combination of three consecutive simple notes: Judgement! Death! Destruction! (x3) Fire! Famine! And war! Plunder! Rape! Pillage! (x3) Fire! Famine! And war! Plagues of lice and boils! (x3) Fire! Famine! And war! As you can see, this is further proof that not all things Biblical make for a great worship song. The publishing company wrote a very nice letter back encouraging them in their obedience to Christ and thanking them for the song, but that they were unable to find a place for it in any of their upcoming projects. While it completely avoids the mess of using pronouns (notably, 1st or 3rd person), I think its major flaw is how hard it would be to make hand motions accordingly. -Jared

I went to my first catholic mass today at the school where i teach at - they did a third of the service in LATIN. O my word - how irrelevent and inaccesible are you!!

Rob, you can add my name to the list of people who would like to see a Siemer family blog. Here's a song that mentions a river and, imagine this, explains the metaphor right in the lyrics. Beautiful Mystery by Caedmon's Call: The truth is a river Where the strong can swim down deep The weak and the broken Can walk across so easily But I should say that this isn't a worship song.

Well, after laughing heartily over the last several comments (Jared-I'm going to use your Dad's hymn with my middle schoolers on Sunday, except I'm going to whisper it scarily into the microphone while my nature sounds CD play in the background. It will be a corporate "experience" to say the least.) I have the perfect way around having any bad worship songs...(this is actually what I do.) Just grab the nearest wall, sit down, face the wall, and rock back and forth. That way, you can sing whatever song you want, and it's a "corporate" worship service because everyone's got a bit of wall. However, we've got our "individual" component covered because you can't get much more personal with your Creater than through rocking in a corner. I personally think Rainman was a visionary in the so-called "post-modern worship craze"...

Brian McLaren is a pastor and author (most famously, A New Kind Of Christian) that travels around a lot and noticed trends in worship leaders all over the country. He wrote a letter to worship leaders and, specifically, worship songwriters based on the that trend. Here's a link to the article: http://www.emergentvillage.com/index.cfm?PAGE_ID=419 - (opens in new window) An unfairly quick summary: Worship music is too much about the individual worshipper. He urged 5 new trends to write about. 1. about a hopeful future 2. about Christ's mission for the church 3. lyrics inspired by (Christian) spirituality from throughout history 4. about God's character, but not neccessarily what it does for "me" 5. songs of pain and lament (as opposed to, ahem, dancing) Also, you worship leaders should at least read the last several (shorter) paragraphs, they apply to more than just song*writers*. Being in a church where the pastor regularly prays ancient Celtic prayers right off the page, I can say that McLaren is certainly onto something with this letter... the imagery of scripture, ancient prayers, and creeds is absolutely something not found in the songs mentioned in this discussion so far (save for knitting together the hearts of Ruth and Naomi). :o)

And what about the absurd crapurdity of Higher, Higher

I agree, some worship songs don't really cut it for me. But I do question the motives of those who print out the top five worship songs that they hate. Look into it then, try and understand, not just in your own head, but actually understand, search for Biblical reference, for meaning that is possibly there beyond what you can see. It's true, some songs just don't seem to have much to them, or they don't really make sense, but I had a professor at Bible college who challenged us on one particular worship song that people generally dislike because it seemed to be meaningless, he then went on to give us Biblical references for this song and the imagery used in it. It didn't really change my opinion of the song, but it did give insight into an otherwise misunderstood song. What's with Christians and complaining anyway?

Whats with chrisitans and accepting things because thats the way in which it always has been done. Its so illogical and irritating. Tradition is the bane of the evangelism. Ivory Twer chrisitanity is also absurd. People who do not engage at all with the reality of the world and think it can be fixed with a lunch bar and a 30 min talk. It makes me so angry to see the complacency of chrisitans as a whole feeling what they do is enough but still dong the same piecemeal change. Jesus call us to be radical and revolutionary. At this moment in time we are not we are happy to sit back and accept it.

For the love of God (literally) would you all get a grip!

James: You're funny (I think). Rob: A river song killed my uncle. I just didn't know how to say it before. Troy: It's fine that you were able to make sense out of a worship song once a trained theologian systematically exegeted the words and related them to scripture. But shouldn't a worship song make easier sense than that? Don't get me wrong, at the church I go to now there are concordances, dictionaries of biblical imagery, and commentaries in every row so that people can figure out what it is they're being asked to sing to God. It's a Christian utopia! Oh, and no one ever complains. We just smile and say, "Yes, I was blessed by the line in the song you wrote that said, 'When my dog, Sparky, died trying to save me from drowning in a river, I realized the true nature of love.'" Rob (II): The problem with river songs, other than the unfortunate side effect of reminding us of Poor Sparky's demise, is not really that the song has no meaning, but that the audience has to supply all of the meaning for the song to have any kind of coherence. Sitting down two years after singing the song and trying to make sense of what you sang is kind of like rationalizing sin; you can make it sound reasonable afterward, but that doesn't change the fact that you were doing something mindless at the time. Is it really good writing to string together vague images in the hope that one of the possible meanings (or two or three) will be worshipful? That's just shooting in the dark and hoping you hit something. It's not really about ambiguity (which I have already supported). It's about setting a range of possible interpretations. In my opinion, the line "Let the river flow" in itself sets no range of determinacy for the meanings that people could make. Troy (II): If the exercise that your professor led you through didn't change your opinion of the song, how about I just keep my opinion without researching lame songs? Jared: Are there hand motions that go along with your dad's song? Peter: You're a jerk. Seriously, leave Troy alone. You're not mad at him. It's God. God's mad at him. Troy (III): Cynical Christian rule number one--there are no cynical Christians. Rule number two--don't take anything too seriously that you read here. -peter

James, when you say, "Would you ALL just get a grip?" do you mean even me? -Rob

WOW!! I was searching Google to see if "Dance in the River" was from Scripture and I found this place... I sing in a Christian rock band. We do originals and covers. Prior to a couple of years ago, I didn't listen to CCM (except for my wife's Point of Grace- involuntarily). Now, my band mates have me on a steady diet of lots of good (and not so good) music including Praise and Worship. My observation- people respond more favorably to our originals than the covers... Maybe people are getting a little worn out by the repetitive nature of some songs; read Every Move...(na na na nana na na)... and the fact that a lot of the recent stuff sounds as generic as boy bands. Cookie cutter music...it's time people sat down and wrote something that doesn't sound like everything else. (I have the "advantage" of not having listened to all of these a thousand times). Also, a worship service is only as meaningful as you allow it to be- leave worldly problems outside or better yet, at Jesus' feet.

Well, I stumbled upon this thread fairly randomly, and don't know any of y'all so I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but all that being said, I was fairly disheartened by reading through this thread. I'm a bit of a cynic too, but I don't HATE these songs, I just think they are ridiculous. My roommates and I were having a conversation the other day about God listening to worship music... He's not sitting there going "ooh, they're singing my favorite! yeah!" or "good grief, not this one AGAIN; I'm rethinking this whole free will thing, I should never have allowed Trading my Sorrows to be written." If we allow God to be this kind of listener (which, we really can't, but for the sake of humor, work with me here) we have to admit that more likely than not, God's not even listening to USA mass-market CCM stuff and is more interested in whoever in the world is truly worshipping in spirit and in truth. Remember, it's not about US! Yes, certain songs are difficult for me to sing in a spirit of reverence, but I don't think God is any less glorified by my being filled with joy in His presence! So, all that being said, Susi and I have created our own list of worship songs that make us laugh: 1. Salvation belongs to our God- I've tried and tried, because there is so much great (biblical) stuff in this song, but at some point we eventually get to the chorus, and realizing that we're singing about the praise and glory and wisdom and all the rest doesn't diminish the fact that we're *singing* a sentence fragment repeatedly... be to our God... 2. Along the lines of the aforementioned secular songs turned into worship songs: "Can you Feel His Love Tonight?" and "He Will, He Will Save You" I personally took great delight in destroying the overhead sheets to this songs, thus sparing future generations of youth group attendees the difficult task of trying to maintain a spirit of worship when really your cheeks hurt from laughing so hard. 3. Any song from Amy Grant's "Songs from the Loft" album. This is probably due more to the fact that I had a youth group leader who consistently butchered these songs.. 4. Any song that fades out on the album. It's had to fade out live on an acoustic worship set. It's even harder to coordinate the corporate fading out of all the people folowwing the worship leader. At some point, you're just done. Susi, feel free to post the rest when you see this! I know I'm forgetting some. Everyone else, next time you hear a song that you "hate" or "can't worship to", instead please reflect on God's goodness in creating a funny world for us to live in, and his delight in (and I firmly believe, humor in) us, his children!

Well, I've been reading things being said here and it has definitely been discouraging to hear other Christians bashing songs that are suppposed to bring glory to God. As much as you say that these comments are not to be taken seriously, much of them are said out of your hearts and to see them posted for everyone to see is not the most edifying comments for anyone and especially to God. And if you don't try to find out what the meaning behind songs are, then what's the point for you to even sing any worship songs? You say that there's no point to finding out the meaning behind the lyrics cuz it's too tedious, but when you read your bibles, you don't understand everything either. That doesn't mean you don't try to figure what the meaning is behind Scripture does it? i hope not. If we're worshipping and singing songs and we don't mean it, we're pretty much lying to God. Everything we do is a worship to God, so why does this site even exist? I don't think this pleases Him at all.

Have you ever heard "The Dance SOng" sung by foundation red? They play it as a worship song, and it features such poignant lyrics as: "This is the song we call the dance song God loves it when we sing the dance song Doesn't have no deep deep meaning We just dance dance dance dance" Sigh... John

you made that song up

anonymous - as chrisitans we are to make the church as relevent as possible to all. Now abysmally cheesy and bad songs dont help that end. Bottom line. Ed

We do have a responsibility as Christians not to be cynical like the rest of the world...so Anonymous really has a valid point. On the other hand, some songs aren't so great. The main thing IS to worship God in spirit and in truth. Finding an outlet for that is the most important aspect. Listen to your favorites while driving- cuts road rage by 95%, I promise. If the worship leader picks a dud from time to time, so be it. People that post here know in their own hearts whether they are just being funny or if they're feeling a little contempt. As a lyricist, I've become a little paranoid from reading this thread (maybe that ain't a bad thing).

It is often the case that worship leaders pick duds all the time. Thechurch is a living being, not a victirian relic. While we are at it, churches with the King James bible in their pews are also guilty of this stagnation.

Stagnancy doesn't come from what songs you sing or what version of the Bible you have in your pews, it comes from leaders who don't know how to lead, who have no vision or direction.

a. Worship songs are not sacred. I seriously don't imagine God has a problem with us taking a critical look at them, or even laughing about them. Thankfully He blessed most of us with a sense of humor. b. I know the word "Cynic" is used many times in this thread, but I prefer to think of myself as a "Critic," but not in the sense of the continually condemned critical spirit in the church. I think this site is a perfect place to take a step back and express some criticisms we have of songs currently being played in Christian worship services. I think if we read people's comments, we will find some legitimate criticisms of some songs that a wise worship leader or song writer could apply to make worship better for everyone. c. If I had to guess, I would say just about everyone who has posted here has posted because we really LOVE WORSHIP and LOVE GOD and LOVE to see our WORSHIP OF GOD not tripped up by silly lyrics, melodies, or, heaven forbid, hand motions. d. Kelly & Rob followed their famed list of so many years ago with a list of their 10 favorite worship songs--I'm guessing any of us would just as easily be able to praise the songs we love as diss the songs we can't stand. So because this happens to be a forum where we're doing the latter is, in my mind, part of the balance we need in our Christian lives. And, anonymous, I totally appreciate your post and am glad you feel comfortable expressing a counter opinion, but I really hope the anonymity of your posting was an accident because it seems pretty uncool to post on a site criticizing other posters and the site itself and not back it up with your name. -Beth

But all of these ingredients result in the phenomenon Im going to call crap church. Nothing to say to anyone but the select few who run it.

Ed: Can you explain what you're talking about? Your last post was a little hard to understand. (btw, I removed the link)

I feel that many churches are very complacent in all that they do. As christians we must make the church relevent. The leadership witihn churches is often so firmly established that they do not analyse what they are doing on all levels to ensure it is as effective as possible. This makes the church often unapproachAable for youngsters and a place where it is easy to be bored and is easy to be dissuaded from going. The worship is merely part of this. I feel passionatly that this needs to change as God has something relevent to say to all people young and old but we are n ot being effectine in saying it.

A childish riposte. Not at all. My wide experince of church is that it is run by people who are un aware of the purpose of the church - to love and not judge, to be inclusive.

well, ed, what are you going to do about it? what your plan of action to remedy this problem? (sarabi: i'm still debating about whether or not i'm going to post the rest of the "worship songs that make us laugh" list)

Anonymous, I am sorry you found this discussion to be unedifying and discouraging. I found it the exact opposite. I was extremely encouraged by this discussion, and I mean that very seriously.

What am i going to do. Well I am just a lowly christian. What I can do is promote discussion and constant evaluation at my churh. To not accept things as written as theyy are tradition byut look again. I can try to leasd by example where posssible. On a larger scale I can pray. Tis the most powerful weapon we have. How is that for an answer? Ed

Just stumbled upon this page. I appreciate most everyone's sense of humor and willingness to laugh at ourselves - though it started to get ugly once or twice. Seems like the cynicism and criticism are an OK place to camp for a short time, but we don't wanna live there. Bitterness is a weed that takes hold easily and thrives without nuturing. But a flower requires care. So yeah, let's nod our heads together saying "yeah, that one bugs me too..." and then move on to something constructive and helpful. Any monkey can criticize and ridicule - it takes maturity, though, to get beyond that. That said, I think someone should take all of the "features" of your least-favorite worship songs and amalgamate them (can i use that as a verb?) into one whopper of a horrible song - but be careful; because if the wrong people get a hold of it, it may get published. Ha. --ty

Actually, I did create a worst "worship" compilation song for a skit I wrote for a Christian coffee house last year: (sung to the tune of Jesus Loves me) Jesus, Jesus You're the Best Alleilua, Praise the Lord, I ring huge bells to my God-song, Bow all of me before your feet. Yes, yes, yes, yes Lord. La, la, la la la. Yes, yes,yes, yes Lord, La la la na na na.

Oh yes, forgot the name. That thing of darkness I acknowledge mine. Doug

I'd like to see Anonymous and Ed duke it out in the ring. We could bill it as the Second Revolutionary War: This Time It's Worshipful.

Okay this sight is hilarious! And many of you have confirmed my reasoning for the need for a completley underground pub for pastors. A place where only the secret knock or handshake will get you in. A place where there is a two beer maximum and what is said there stays there! A place for pastors to vent to each other and tell stories about things like "Can you beleive that song we sang sunday!" Thanks for making my day and while we are at it. How about doing away with all "Saved songs" a term coined for secular songs that the words are changed for worship. if the best we can offer is to rip off the world, how pathetic! If we are created in God's image, and He is the ultimate creator, then we should be setting the standard for what is great music! Trix Daddio

OK, I found this post through this week's Christian Carnival, and am alternately amused and surprised at what people find objectionable in worship music. I, like Jeff, am a songwriter (although I don't generally foist my wordy creations onto congregational worship)... and a worship leader who does actually like some of the music that you folks have been ranting about. But I understand the "overused" tag and do avoid singing things that have been done a billion times in our church. My personal rant has got to be about a song from my childhood: Blow the Trumpet in Zion. I went to a very charismatic church as a child, where people sang this song with great gusto and danced the pogo in the aisles. From the time I was old enough to understand the scripture reference this song was taken from, I refused to sing along. There's nothing that makes me want to worship less than a song about AN INVASION OF LOCUSTS, folks. That is all. :)

Trix, making fun of worship is one thing, but encouraging people to drink beer has gone too far. scandalous.

Peter, I was thinking to myself, "Drinking beer is one thing, but making fun of worship has gone too far!" Trix

we should not make fun of church but constantly put what it does under fair and wide ranging scrutiny

Ed, no believe it or not, the Dance Song mentioned earlier is (sadly) a real (and I use the term loosely) worship song. I took my youth group to Jr. High Believe, a conference in St. Louis, and they played it there several times. Sad, but true...

Ed, no believe it or not, the Dance Song mentioned earlier is (sadly) a real (and I use the term loosely) worship song. I took my youth group to Jr. High Believe, a conference in St. Louis, and they played it there several times. Sad, but true...

a 2 drink maximum? man oh man. forget. that.

Dang, I feel like I got to the party after the parents kicked everyone out. Well, I have been reading this blog and howling and quoting pieces to my husband (who is a "what is it with these songs whose lines don't fit the music buttheyjustcramthemallinanyway" person - he's the drummer and the songs that don't make sense musically are what drive him nuts) I think the reason the response is so big is that we're so relieved we're not the only ones who are humming "Centerfold" under our breath and yet who are good, Bible-believing Christians with a healthy walk. I've never joined the Praise Team (get asked periodically) and I finally confessed to one of the leaders that I didn't think I could sing some of the songs without rolling my eyes right there on the stage, and she said I needed to ask the Spirit to help me with it, that's what she does. All I could think of, is if even the worship team struggles with this, WHY DO WE SING THEM?!!! My biggest peeve are the songs that repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat "Open the eyes of my heart, Lord...." A)because they are just boring and I find my mind wandering off to where to eat for lunch afterwards etc. and B) and this is particularly the slooooowwwwww ones because I feel like they are trying to hypnotise me, under the guise of putting me in the "right" frame of mind. This I rebel against - I feel like that scene from A Wrinkle in Time when the big brain on the dais is pulsing and the sister is screaming "NO!!NO!!" but seriously - we draw near to God in different ways and I for one don't need to be in a soporific trance to get there. I think the reason we get so sick of these songs is because they ARE sung so much, because there is SO MUCH SINGING in a typical modern church nowadays. Am I the only person who thinks 45 minutes of music and 20 minutes of sermon is backwards? I always worry about the people who are visiting a church for the first time...if you grew up in a church, it's normal to sing in a group but if you didn't...it's VERY wierd to sing out loud next to someone you don't even know. And if it goes on and on, pretty excruciating. I think what happens is that the worship team, who is of course musically-oriented, because that is their spiritual gift and and singing and music comes naturally to them, forget that not everyone is wired that way. So they sing of their love FOREVER and after a while the other half of the congregation starts shifting their feet and looking around and throw in a couple holyholy.........holyholy...........holy holyyyy..........Lord God Almighty......type songs and it just makes for a long morning. And don't think I don't appreciate the work that goes into planning a worship service - it's a lot of work especially hunting down new songs which is I think why so many bad ones get foisted on us, they are just desperate for something, anything new! (Other times I suspect it's just a case of the worship leader needs to get off his duff and learn some new chords.) My point is, we could spread out the music further if we sang less of it each week. I don't think God minds that we are discussing this. God made it pretty clear within the first few chapters of the bible that He expects excellence, our best - Genesis 4:3-7 - most of our frustrations lie in the fact that we feel like we're presenting to God sort of second-rate, lazy songwriting. I want you all to know that I am wasting time on this blog instead of doing the words for Media Shout for Sunday, there goes my Saturday, thank you very much!! PS also relieved to see I'm not the only one who uses crap as an adjective.

Wow, nice. Let's all sit on our "duffs" and criticize the worship service. Let's all pick apart worship songs. Let's all snicker and sneer at the poor people on stage who spend hours each week preparing for Sunday. Who spent years learning an instrument and improving their voices. Oh, but they're lazy, right Tania? Too lazy to learn some new chords so they can bring YOU the songs YOU want to hear. Oh, the song service is too long... Guess what? That's the pastor's call. Complain to him. The worship team isn't there to entertain you. They are there to worship and hopefully create an atmosphere conducive to congregational worship. It's not easy. I can't sing like Mac Powell, but we're going to do "You Are So Good to Me" anyway. We make mistakes. We are not professional musicians. We do the best we can. We have to consider the audience and be sensitive to the Spirit. We are using our giftings for the Lord. Are you?

"Worship leader": As the originator of this post, I realize that the material here may be offensive and hurtful. I hope that you read the original post before making your remarks, where I specifically stated that I know it is hard to write and play worship songs and I respect those who do. But I also believe that I, and everyone else for that matter, reserve the right to think critically (and humorously) about any song, worship or otherwise. The thing I have learned most through this post is that some people are unable to sync the subcategory 'worship songs' with the category 'songs in general' and are thus unable to deal with criticism of said worship songs. While I can't understand their viewpoint, I can respect their opinions (and yours). What I think you should realize, however, is that this post was not a personal criticism of worship leaders or songwriters. It was simply a "rant" of which I am very fond of making. I am assuming (at the risk of being wrong, of course) that the others who have made similar comments are also of this personality type that finds it humorous and cathartic to rant about something and then let it go. I believe that if you read the whole of the post and the comments, you will see that our prose is often exaggerated and is mostly meant in fun, and that we are all deeply committed to worshipping God in whatever form that may take, whether or not we happen to 'enjoy' it. In my mind, that is a sign of maturity, and not a reason to question our faith or use of our gifts.

Well said Sara, Besides we tend to pigeon hole "Worship" into the category of "Song singing" It is our living sacrifice to God that is worship. I fully appreciate the opportunity to agree and disagree and poke a little fun at ourselves, even if it occasionally gets a little heated. The way we do church today is so not Biblical, and too many people are looking for there church to provide an hour and 15 minute "Holy experience" that is supposed to be everything they want and need to sustain them until next Sunday. If so called mature beleivers would quit sitting around with their mouths open to be spoon fed their christianity, it wouldn't matter how long the worship went on a particular Sunday or how short the preacher went. Thanks for this web site and the opportunity to examine what we do, why we do it, and can we be more effective. Whew! That was a lot to unload, can we get back to making fun of ourselves. Who has some good stories about Really bad "Special number" solos sung in their church? Trix

Dang, Worship Leader! Whew! Relax, man. Why would you go out of your way to take Tania's comments so personally? Do you know her? Does she go to your church? If not, then what she said either: 1. applies to you, in which case it might be good to take some of her insights constructively, or 2. does not apply to you, in which case, it doesn't apply to you! So why get defensive? Are you getting defensive on behalf of... uh... all the worship leaders to whom what she said DOES apply? That doesn't make very much sense. If she is accurate about them, they don't deserve to have anyone get defensive on their behalf. More likely, it seems you are saying--based on your response--that what she is saying doesn't apply to ANY worship leaders. You spoke in the absolute "we" throughout, and seemed to be using it as a pronoun for, "All worship leaders." Do ALL worship leaders spend hours each week preparing for Sunday? Really? May I tentatively suggest that maybe, just maybe, some do not? Of the hundreds of thousands of worship leaders in this country, might at least a handful of them show up on Sunday morning and wing it? And might it be because they were--let me think of the PC way to say this--"not un-lazy" at key points during the week? Do you think any worship leaders in this country this last week neglected practice and/or prayer time to watch television or surf the internet for porn? And might this less than responsible behavior possibly be to the detriment of Sunday morning worship? You used "we" so absolutely, I have to ask, "If there is even one worship leader who behaved this way this week (and I'd bet my internet priveledges there was) why would you want to associate yourself with him and defend him?" Furthermore, do all worship leaders try to improve their voices for years? Do all worship leaders "do the best they can"? Are all worship leaders using their gifts? Do none of them have any say in how long worship goes? We all know the answers to these questions. And I agree that there are some harsh things on this post. I've posted some of them myself. But I commend Tania for her post on two accounts. First, it was done from the inside. Her husband plays in a worship band. Obviously, she knows the ins and outs of things. Second, she made it clear that she was speaking in generalizations and left plenty of room for exceptions. For example, she did not say, "All worship leaders everywhere are too lazy to get off their duffs..." She said, "Other times I suspect..." She was clearly and explicitly using generalities. You took her words as absolutes, and responded in absolutes. This is curious. I sometimes preach, and if I read a post that says, "I sometimes suspect that preachers don't pray about their sermons," I'm not going to say, "You're wrong! We preachers pray about our sermons plenty! And we spend hours going over our manuscripts! And we're just using our gifts!" etc., etc., etc.. How the heck do I know how often all preachers everywhere pray about their sermons? I suspect many of them DON'T pray enough, and for the good of the kingdom, I would hope that they WOULD stumble across a post that would challenge them on the issue. The most troubling thing about your post is that you might have actually had some good things to say, but no one's going to pay any attention to them because you come across as defensive and innacurate in your response. Defensive because you chose to take Tania's humorous, general post as a mean and personal attack, and innaccurate because you strongly imply that all worship leaders everywhere are doing everything they can and should to facilitate godly worship for their congregations. But because I'm in the mood, I'm going to try to reshape your post into what maybe you should have said if you actually wanted anyone to take it seriously. I was a Communication major with English and Psychology minors, so I'm pretty good at this sort of thing. Here goes: ********* Well, I'm a worship leader at a church, and I just read all the posts. I gotta admit, some of the stuff was pretty funny, and some of it definitely rings true. Worship leaders (and ministers everywhere) need to be able laugh at themselves, and this blog is a good place to start. I do need to say, however, that a couple of points in some of these posts troubled me a bit. I think I got a little defensive because, as a matter of fact, I HAVE used Third Day songs in worship, and I DON'T sound anything like Mac Powell. So when I read that comment both my pride and my nostrils flared a little. I took a few breaths, and I'm calm, the nose is back to normal, so everything's cool. I realize the point of these posts is basically to vent about lack of excellence in worship services. And I also realize that it's basically impossible to qualify and disclaim everything you write. Generalizations are necessary. But sometimes, when all you write and read are generalizations, it actually pushes your perspective into believing those generalizations. For example, some worship leaders are lazy, to be sure. BUT, we all know that not all of them are. Many of them deliberately learn multiple instruments and spend years honing their craft, all for the enhancement of worship. Again, I know everyone here KNOWS this. But I really just wanted to gently--and, I pray, humbly--remind everyone of it again. Some of us even KNOW that we're not very good worship leaders, but we really are doing our best, and it may be that the best person for the job in any given congregation isn't willing. Many of us are trying to hear the Spirit and use our gifts, and many of us choose songs that people tell us they like. Believe it or not, some people even like "Trading My Sorrows." I guess all I'm trying to do here is remind everyone who posts here to be sensitive--if not in your posts, at least in your minds and actions--to those of us who do try to learn new chords, who wish we sounded like Mac Powell, who search for new songs, who lead 45 minute worship sessions because the pastor tells us to, who spend years training our voices, who play songs that people tell us they like, and who are really just trying to follow the Spirit and use what gifts we have for the edification of our brothers and sisters in Chist and the glorification of our God in heaven. Not all of us do all of these things. Some of us don't do any. But if I know that you all remember that some of us do many of these things, it will be a lot easier for me to read these posts and laugh, and maybe even take away a few pointers. By His Grace, ******** And then you would have signed your name, because anonymous posts always seem defensive, and are hard to take seriously. Many pastors don't even read anonymous letters. They just have their secretaries throw them away. If you had written this post instead of the post you did, Tania and everyone else might have actually prayerfully considered it. And, instead of this treatise, I would have written something brief and cordial, like: "Hey, [YOUR NAME], thanks for the honesty and humility. You've definitely made some good points, and I will remember that "some of you do many of those things." And I'll make it a point to pretend that my worship leader has read this blog and needs a lot of encouragement because of it. I'll make it a point to let him know how much I appreciate his work and his heart. He's a good, spirit led guy who sometimes picks crappy songs. Hey, I sometimes preach crappy sermons! So, yeah, let's all hug our worship leaders this Sunday, no matter what songs they pick. Thanks, [YOUR NAME], and I look forward to seeing your posts again. By His Grace, Rob. P.S.--I still don't believe that anyone likes 'Trading My Sorrows' :)" But you wrote what you did, and not what you could have. So I wrote what I did and not what I would have liked to. And eveyone's a little more tense and no one's really growing or communicating. Too bad, I guess. -Rob

P.S.--I signed the end of that last post, but not the beginning. I meant to do both. I apologize. -Rob

My spiritual gift is the ability to NOT sing like Mac Powell.

Yeah, I've noticed, Jared. If I had to pick someone, I'd say you sound most like Bonnie Tyler. -Rob

A huge bell you ring, Pastor Rob. Jesus has totally clipped my heart.

I think we've stumbled onto another reason why some worship songs don't do much for us: most worship teams I've been on are a bunch of amateur musicians; some more gifted than others, but typically, they are people with busy lives and limited training or talent. I love working in these bands--let me say that again: I *love* working with people in worship bands--but it's unusual that you find a worship team leader knowledgeable and eager to develop better musicianship and people who have the time and ability to get better. And when you do find that, you run the risk of doing things that might be fun as a band, but that are inaccessible to the congregation. I've been in all these scenarios. I think one way to address this catch-22 is to train and enable pastors not simply to be rehearsal- and song-leaders, but to really reflect on how to use music to bring congregants into worship together, to help them grow in their faith and knowledge of God. We want to sing songs that have aesthetic value, whose words and music work together and reflect orthodox theology, and that encourage congregational participation, and ultimately, congregational growth. That there are so many comments here is a testament to the importance of worship music, and I think those of us that are involved in making the music happen should feel gratified that people care enough about it to want it to be good.

There are a lot of people who are great musicians and can sing but are lousy worship leaders. Some might say of other worship leaders. "They're not the most talented, but they have a lot of heart." I personally can appreciate that, BUT! It doesn't always cut it. Tony Danza isn't the greatest actor in the world. "Oh but you know he has a lot of heart" Look what that got us..."Who's the boss!" I don't know if my congregation and especially a new person checking us out understands the "alot of heart" theory. We need to offer our best. if we have musicians that are new and learning, offer training sessions, hey while you're at it...it's a great opportunity to disciple them and develop relationship with them. Spend time finding out where their heart is, and how to help them make worship an offering of sacrifice instead of a gig. A worship leader needs to spend equal time rehearsing and discipling their band. Trix Daddio(craig)

I almost forgot. Rob, your last post was hilarious! I tried to enlighten my wife to the thought provoking hilarity of your reply to "anonymous" worship leader...She didn't get it. Which proves to me how funny it really was. Trix Daddio

Bottom line - if churches are not relevent to all they will die. God will not be got across to people - a tragedy. People listening to songs that are simply risible and yes...crap is not relevent. ed

Aw, shucks, Mr. Daddio. You're too good to me. Now, as for Tony Danza, that's another story. Your post, and some long hours over the graphing calculator, led me to a formula that I'd like to run by everyone: [(Heart + Ability) x Discernment] / Number of times you have watched "Who's the Boss" = Worship Factor. If you watched Danza tapdance at the Miss America Pagent a couple years ago, then subtract 17. I think this formula works for preaching as well, but it is still untested. If you all like it, this may end up being my dissertation topic. -Rob

I had general math in 9th grade and failed pre-algebra, so i am going to have to trust you in regards to your calculation. I was thinking about "culturally relevant" churches and was waondering if some churches in the areas where "Who's the boss" runs in syndication are preaching sermon topics with the same title, not realizing the Tony Danza is not the "It" factor anymore. Which brings me to my next topic, anybody seen or heard pastors using really bad or out dated pop culture in their sermons or misguided ones? A pastor at a church i used to be at, just this year tried to use Nike's "Just do it" as a springboard for preaching. Or how about my personal favorite most over used slogan for anything..."Got God?" "Got Jesus"..."Got church?" How about t-shirts for all the participants of this website that reads..."Got worship?" Trix

Interesting, Trix... I was at the beach last weekend, and I went to one of those stores that sells T-shirts. There are always some funny ones in there, but I always manage to resist the temptation to buy the ones that reflect a current fad (like the Taco Bell chihuahua of 3 years ago). I know that the shelf life of such a shirt is short... Saw someone yesterday with a shirt that said "Whoop, there it is!" I wanted to take them to the beach and buy them a Geico gecko T-shirt... Pastors do better to stick with what they know. As a teacher, I only use slang that I KNOW! Trust me when I say that if you repeat a phrase that you hear from today's kids without knowing it's meaning, you'll probably be saying something that would cause dead Grandma Phyllis to Jazzercise in her grave... Your gnarly bud, Jeff

I think the list is pretty funny. I really don't have any worst of songs. I think people have a right to their opinion. But the one thing that I do wonder about is whether any of you have researched the meaning of these songs. Most songs have a story behind it and I think its unfair to put our own interpretations behind it. When I pick songs for worship I pray and ask for the Holy Spirit's leading. So if the Holy Spirit is leading us to sing these so called worst songs what are we to think? Is it right for us to judge these songs in the way that we are? I agree some worship songs are just fluff without any substance to them but we really need to be more sensitive to the people who sing them and more respectful to those who right them. Just some food for thought.

Oh, right on. The "huge bell" thing cracks me up. A line that always gets me is "like a rose trampled on the groud" in Above All. A neat metaphor, but I think too dramatic for congregational singing. Sounds like a 70's ballad anyway! Oh, and right on with "Happy Song", and I feel the same way about the Happy song pt. 2, or as I like to call it, "The Passion Worship set closer." I think it's actually called "Undignified."

So I was just preparing the worship set for my team at church, and I was really frustrated with the last song. "Word of God Speak" has an exellent idea about not venting to God and then leaving and forgeting that He might want to say somthing (deap breath), but the chorus really reminds me of cereal when its been left sitting with the milk in it for a few hours. Anyway, I decided to try to find a better song and I found this. I haven't laughed so hard in years! Seriously, its nice to know that you're not alone in your frustration ... and you're not alone in dealing with the trynottolaughuntilyouspontaneouslycombust syndrom in church. ...When it all comes down to it, someday we're going to be praising God for all eternity, like it says in Revelation, and all this mushy cereal music isn't going to be a problem. I just hope you guys feel as strongly about all areas of life as you do about worship songs. Singing is just a small part of our worship to Him. Oh yeah, here's my number one worst worship song....and I don't know what it's called. The chorus goes "Draw me close,let You love suuround me. Bring me near, draw me to Your side. And as I wait I'll rise up like the eagle, and I will soar with You, Your spirit leads me on in the power of Your love." .....I'm not even going to comment. (By the way, desparate is really spelled desperate) =) So I'm going to pick the last song now, feeling a great sense of relief...and a side ache.

That song is called "Power of Your Love" and, if you can believe it, has been performed in Spanish and English (in the same performance) at our church as a "special". It took like twenty minutes. AAAAHHHHHH!

Greetings brothers and sisters in Christ. In Him we are saved and truly set free. I am truly thankful for "stumbling" onto this thread. To think that I orignially put in a google search for "top 10 worship songs" only to come across this one. Ever since I was young I've wanted to be a worship leader and by His grace I am currently leading the praise for our church's youth. As I was reading through everyone's comments, I found some offensive, but found most to be highly informative and educational. I honestly thought there was nothing wrong with the song "Trading My Sorrows" and even sung it once during a worship service. (Shame on me, I guess, but I'm the kind of person that's willing to try anything once as long as there is the motive to glorify God.) But I do not add that song to the song list anymore, mainly because the song is so difficult to follow along. I do believe that this forum is a great resource to other worhsip leaders who can also participate. Now let us get straight to the point. It seems to me that many of us have a personal view on what worship songs should be like. Some have said that worship songs should be more communal-oriented not individual-oriented and one insightful brother asked why it couldn't be a nice balance of both. Has not God, Himself, chosen the one to be used to lead the worhsip? Then should we not trust in the one whom He has appointed? Yes, this is a very dry way to look at things, but it will lessen the potential for needless disputes. As far as personal tastes for worship songs go, I think most worship leaders would welcome criticism and would feel blessed that someone cares and prays for the songs sung during worship. Yes, prays for. In my humble opinion, I believe we should pray more for those worship leaders who are a little less sensitive to the congregation. But I think we must remember that even though we may post "don't take this thread personally, please!" People WILL take it personally. Even I had to try, with much difficulty, to read all of the more "discouraging threads" without taking offense. Hopefully, this should encourage those who are writing critiques for the benefit of those who may read their thread to choose their words even more carefully and sometimes even dare to omit some comments that are not constructive feedback. Some of us are not as eloquent as most of you and may have had a hard time expressing their discouragement from some of the posts. Still, those who are sophisticated enough should try to understand and not dismiss it because of bad presentation. Some of the greatest ideas failed to get recognized because of bad presentation. I believe when this happens it is our loss, not theirs. And still to some this place may be a haven to hearts that are/were somewhat bitter because the worship songs were not to their liking. But some of the same people continue to post over and over, more and more songs everytime. I do not think their bitterness has been taken away. In fact, (if I may be so bold) I think their bitterness is on the rise! And because of some threads, their worship experience may never be positive again! I do not think anyone would want this to burden their hearts. Forgive me if i lack the insight to read into some of the more deep posts, but I fear that some of these posts can really hinder people who want to worship Jesus. After reading some of this, who will be able to sing "I Can Sing Of Your Love Forever" again when it is led by a worship team in their church? A beloved brother pointed out that through this post, more bickering may result. I'm praying hard that this will not happen but rather some of us will see that we have been bitter for a long time and desperately need to come back and lay our burdens down before Jesus again. I apologize in advance if i have offended anyone here. It was truly not my intention. May His grace truly fill our praises and our hearts once more! Your brother, eugene

"After reading some of this, who will be able to sing "I Can Sing Of Your Love Forever" again when it is led by a worship team in their church?" I have posted twice in these comments before--I had a few songs to nominate and really have been encouraged (truly) by this thread. I did wonder, Eugene, what would happen when next one of these songs was done in church--would I writhe in *more* agony knowing how we'd just thoroughly trashed the poor song here? Would I come back with an arrogant heart? I suppose it could happen but that's not what happened for me. Sharing this thread and all this frustration with you actually released me to accept the worship at my church for what it is. Instead of getting all worked up I feel like it's kind of out of my system. Praise God who doesn't mind us being real with our feelings and frustrations. (He already knew how we felt before we said a word.)

My son is weighing in this additin to list: 1. "Ah, Lord God", the refrain of which shall heretofore be sung in voice of Sylvester the Cat(Nothing, nothing, abtholutely nothing, nothing is too difficult for thee.)

Eugene (and all other potentially offended parties): I am afraid that maybe people are mistaking this site for something other than what it is. It is not actually a site set up to bash worship songs (or even thoughtfully and spiritually critique them). Rather, this is a web journal, mostly intended to be read by a small circle of people who know the author and each other in person, have known each other in contexts apart from anything to do with worship music, and who generally know how to take seriously what should be taken seriously and also as blowing off steam or just general fun what is intended as such. I think its great that other readers who have never met us have found and joined this discussion, but I'm afraid some are thinking this is the official website of "The Association of Cheesy Worship Song Haters" published in an attempt to undermine the worship experience of those who actually love "Trading My Sorrows." For example, you complain that the same people keep posting. That's because the readership of this blog (this particular entry apparently excluded) is probably limited to a fairly small set of people (no offense Fergusons, you've got way more readers than I do). I'm not sure putting this discussion in the proper context would make these posts any less offensive to you, but it would hopefully put you in the right frame of mind to read and post. Your last sentence raises an interesting question about this discussion though. Are worship experiences somehow hurt by critiquing songs. Music seems especially powerful at suggesting associated memories. Does criticizing songs that are cheesy, but not necessarilly heretical, associate these songs with this criticism in the minds of those who formerly worshipped with them in Spirit and in Truth? Personally, I think that such discussion certainly can and does that...but I'm not sure that this is always a bad thing. Those that are able to use even bad worship songs to worship probably can worship with other worship songs, whereas those of us whose are bothered by bad lyrics may be so distracted that it is very difficult to even focus, more less worship with them. Worship leaders are often more trained in the technique of making music than in the aestheics of poetry or theological concepts. This is also often the case of most of the congregation (the average person is far more likely to be exposed to music than poetry in the course of his day). So when the music leader is picking songs, he may think "Oh, the sermon is about holiness and this songs has the word 'Holy' in it, and it has a good beat!" or "We should sing about brokeness, and this song also makes me feel so sad and broken when all those minor chords come in" without realizing that the songs lyrics are either mind-numbingly cheesy and dull or even theologically misleading (as in the aptly named "Jesus is my girlfriend songs"). Even if the hypothetical worship leader knows that this song is not that great lyrically, he may be tempted to think "But the music is so moving...I can get past the lyrics and worship with it anyway..." or "Ok, so this song is dumb, and even if Peter and I know this, everyone else always has teary eyes and their hands raised when we sing it...let's do it anyway." If honest critiques such as this thread can make others realize how second rate (and I'm being generous, C.S. Lewis called church music lyrics fifth-rate) some worship lyrics are, perhaps the songs will be rightly considered so ridiculous by congregations that they will (mercifully) die out and really good worship songs with really good lyrics AND music will be written. Of course you could say that every has their own opinion about what makes a good or bad worship song...and you could say that everything is really relative, that their are no absolutes, and that we should all define our own standards...and then you could come be in grad school with me and fit right in.

I was wondering then what constitutes a 'good' worship song? I agree that lyrically some songs shouldn't be sung in worship because they are not theologically sound. I think that worship leaders need to be taught basic theology. They need to know what the Bible says about worship and about God. In my experience this is usually not the case. Worship leaders are chosen simply by the fact that they are the best musicians. Churches do not take into consideration that worship leaders need to be trained because it is a vital part of the church. I don't know. Maybe its because I come from a small church or something. Does anyone feel like this? Ultimately worship is for God and God alone. We don't sing

I was wondering then what constitutes a 'good' worship song? I agree that lyrically some songs shouldn't be sung in worship because they are not theologically sound. I think that worship leaders need to be taught basic theology. They need to know what the Bible says about worship and about God. In my experience this is usually not the case. Worship leaders are chosen simply by the fact that they are the best musicians. Churches do not take into consideration that worship leaders need to be trained because it is a vital part of the church. I don't know. Maybe its because I come from a small church or something. Does anyone feel like this? Ultimately worship is for God and God alone.

Very well put, Doug. I'll go a couple steps more and say people here are being naive about how bad most worship songs are. It's shallow to react with "But God listens to our heart not our words, God chose the worship leader, it's not about us." Here comes the heresy. Considering all the deeply loving and profoundly beautiful acts of sovereignty that Christ showers us with, it's just plain insulting to give back merely enough effort/thought to come up with "nothing, nothing, absolutley nothing is too difficult for me." This is the heart of the issue for me. I/we're not saying, as a worshipper, to protest these songs. I'm pleading to the songwriter community to stop being so lame. And that can go for many issues in most churches, but let's stay focused, shall we? As God's children, we have the most inspiring love, the most incredible power, the most humble friend, (and other unmatched characteristics) of which to be moved by, specifically, moved to write a song, and yet most of the time worship writers resort to endless repetition and cliches. But so does Dave Matthews I guess. Seriously though, there are songs written about pets that more accurately reflect the passion I want to be worshipping with. To be honest, I have to take back something I said. I do strongly encourage each worshipping church-goer to wildly protest "The Happy Song." This is the only song I feel so strongly about though.

Church is not a broadway musical. Everytime I hear Come Share the Lord, I think Jean Veljean is going to enter the church building and we're going to start an uprising against the French government.

No it is not a broadwey musical but 80% of christians forget about God and are too happy being traditionalist caught up is what was successful and engaging 30 years ago and failing to take the church out into the world. ed

Exactly! We do spend so much time trying to get people to come to us, let's try this or do that taht'll get them here. We should be out there going to them! What we do on Sunday is so far from a biblical model of church. Yet people hang on to the tradition of things. We have created a consumer mentality in church. I go to this church because they offer "A.B. and C." or i don't like that church because thewy don't have "E.F. and G." Sunday morning is a very smal aspect of what we should be trying to accomplish in bringing people into a relationship with Christ. People want everything they need spiritually wrapped up into an hour and 15 minute psckage and they want it to sustain them until the next week. There is no maturity or discipleship, or accountability. Slip into church and slip out. Trix

I'm a little confused about what the last few posts are saying. It seems like they are complaining about "traditional" worship (whatever that means, its most usual sense is hymns but here it seems to be being used somewhat differently), the refusal of the church to go out into the world AND the consumer mentality (which from a church leader's perspective might lead to more "seeker-senstive" worship. What should Sunday Services really be? Should we be intentionally reaching out to non-Christians and gearing our services to making them feel comfortable, or should we be challenging the flock? This is something I've thought a lot about since moving to Lexington. The two churches I find myself most drawn to here are vastly different in their approaches. One, a 10,000+ mega-church, tends to see Sunday mornings as the light and fluffy get-people-interested service. Another, a 300 member Presbyterian church is pseudo-liturgical and sticks mostly with hymns and responsive readings. The sermons more or less reflect this attitude as well. My inclination is to say that when the church gathers to gather it is for the encouragement and edification of the believers. We should be aware that outsiders may enter (cf 1 Corinthians 14), but in general I'm not sure we should focus on them. I'm not sure evangelism should usually consist of bringing people to church so much as it involves being Christ out in the world, sharing our message and (most importantly) loving as Christ loved. All this really has very little to do with cheesy worship songs though. I guess I tend to think that whatever genre a church uses to worship, it should be done to the best of our ability. Thus, it really doesn't matter all that much whether it is hymns, Broadway-esque music, Rap, or whatever, as long as we are working to ensure that the songs conform to the highest standards of the genre and have true and meaningful lyrics. There is a long and rich history of redeeming fluff and cheesy genres to make something meaningful and true (Hamlet the Revenge/action movie, Jane Eyre the romance novel, Perelandra the pulp 1950s space story). I'm not quite ready to define an aesthetic for praise music, but I think that one important point is that is appropriately and excellently uses the conventions of the genre of song it is trying to be. Doug

holy crap, i didn't realize we could piece this apart so much. way to go! let's keep theologizing this issue while i keep singing romans 16:19!

My friend Amy told me about this site, and i was greatly entertained (despite some theological (?) hair-splitting...speaking of which, does anybody have an opinion on whether or not adam and eve had belly buttons?!). I too have some quibbles with songs sung in church today. The ones that REALLY bother me are the theologically incorrect ones. For heaven's sake, we must worship God in spirit and in TRUTH. I feel keenly the tension between talent and heart in worship leaders. At my church, we have had a talent NON-Christian play in our band before! And at my Christian school, our worship through song is halting and painful for anyone with any pitch because of our worship leader with a great heart, an indifferent voice, and no rhythm. If the pendulum swings too far either way, we are in a dillema. One song i find interesting is "Create in Me a Clean Heart" (probably not the real title), in which we sing the psalm of David after his sin with Bathsheba. This song is heart-felt and biblical, but, in actuality, not true today: "Cast me not away from Thy presence, Oh God/Take not Thy Holy Spirit from me..." Although true in David's time, after Jesus' death for us, and Pentecost we need no longer fear the Spirit of God being removed from us. It makes me wonder: should we sing something thoroughly Biblical and yet no longer applicable? One song I thought of this morning that always entertains my often-too-literal-self is from Proverbs 18:10, "The name of the LORD is/a strong tower/the righteous run into it/they are saved." I have had to bit my lip while picturing various upstanding church members running full speed at and wacking into a big tower, thereupon falling down unconscious. Ah, the joy of worship. Thank you for such a refreshing blog.

p.s. i totally agree about "a huge bell i ring" or any other song where someone ties themselves into pretzels to rhyme (e.g. "please burn away the dross"?! like they would ever use that if they weren't stretching to rhyme with "loss"). to prove once and for all my hypocrisy, i also dislike it when there is no effort to rhyme. :)

Doug--Where was the C.S. Lewis quote in your last post? Did I miss it? I only skimmed, of course. Everyone--How about a new list: "Top Five Worst Posts on this Topic"? I'll bet that would generate some discussion. If only Jared hadn't posted six times.... -peter

Peter, Visit the Los Angelos public library catalog and look up the author of "Perelandra" (referenced in my last post). :) Staying true to my persona (just like old Jack Lewis), Doug

I vote to have the post topic removed completeley...However i keep coming back to it to check it, like a dog returns to it's own vomit! Trix(Craig)

i think that worship songs were meant to praise our Lord and Savour Jesus Christ and not to critisize the way they were written and sung. i thin that if we have a heart that wants to praise God, it won't matter what the song is...our lives should be worship. i guess that we all have different tastes in music but i think God would ultimately love it if you would push that aside and enter into worship because he is worthy.

I repeat...Let's remove this post topic completely! Poor Sam and the other people to just come onto this site, won't have bothered reading all the previous posts, and we'll have to rehash and explain everything again. I don't have that kind of time...I'm too busy trying to blow a little bubble inside a big bubble, because i don't have anything going for me!(See main page post for explanation of the last tyrade) Trix

Trix, Thanks for the idea, but I don't think I'll delete this post. When this happens on your blog, you'll be free to delete whatever you want, but I like it. Yes, some people have been offended. Some people haven't read the context. But some people have been encouraged. The important thing is that everyone has been able to think about it and say what they think. These are things I value. If anyone is really bothered by what they read, they're free to click the little red X on their browser.

I totally agree with you, I suppose mostly waht i was getting at, is i was hoping to move on to a new topic...obviously worship is sooo passionate to all of us and that is why it has created such respons. I am in complete agreement that this discussion is healthy, and that is why i am glad for the post and all the opinions, I myself am not in any way offended, and i am often challenged to move outside my borders of reasoning through the well scripted posts here...Like i said, just hoped for a new topic that would invoke the same though challenging responses. Trix

Ok, if you want to move on then stop adding comments. :-) I'm thinking about posting some of my favorite worship songs. I wonder if that would help.

i think that sounds like a terrible idea. i hate everything. Trix

i thought worship songs were written to get recording contracts primarily...

"Better Is One Day" How many times can you sing "better is one day" without running out the back door screaming for the Christ to return.

Thank you all who are regulars at this blog for posting such a lively and transparent discussion about our "worship songs". I am a full-time youth pastor so I hear quite a bit of "worship songs" at church, in student services, in the hundreds of CDs I pick up through the years, at camps/conferences/retreats, etc. etc. And some of it is REALLY bad. I think it's important for us to be honest with one another about that fact. While we're at it, we can add that we have each created/done things in Jesus' name that were at least equally BAD. I have had so many flops in my student ministry "career" that I often wonder why God still uses me. I guess that's just another lesson in grace. Thank God that His grace covers our own shortcomings, as well as those of cheesy "worship song" writers. And, for the record, the worst "worship song" is the one with the bridge that yells "I'M ALIVE, I'M ALIVE, I'M ALIVE, I'M ALIVE!!!" Are we really trying to convince ourselves of the fact? Or are we merely making as deep a theological statement as "Grass is green", "Rocks are hard", "Poop is brown", or whatever little factoid it seems would be fun shouting at the moment? Just for fun, think of any other little descriptive phrase that you can and sing it in your head the next time that song is played--that will bring the joy of the Lord to your face for sure! : )

"Better is one day in Your courts, than thousands with this song..."

"I could sing of your love forever...and this song is getting close..."

Actually, all things considered, I don't mind the actual lyrics to the "I'm Alive" song all that much. I agree that bridge is ridiculous, but in my experience most worship leaders drop it anyway. It also has the unfortunate "I bow all of me at your feet" line. There's actually a whole slew of songs which fit into the "If only they fixed that one line..." category. The "You're the best" song is among them. Maybe even the "huge bell" song (although I think the rhythm of that song is a little complicated for corporate worship). Doug

So I think what we've concluded here are the following statements: 1. It's okay to criticize worship music. 2. Because plenty of it is actually from Satan. 3. Still though, we are bad Christians for sharing these thoughts. 4. But at least there are a lot of us. 5. The Happy Song really is the worst worship song ever written. And maybe the worst song in general.

My favorite worship song of all time is anything by...whats that guys name? Oh yeah, and Peter, thanks for writing on my behalf, i do hate everything, but i'm working on it. Trix

Actually when you hear the bridge "I'm alive, I'm alive" over and over and over it starts to sound like, "five alive, five alive". That's when I start to get thirsty....

Man, Five Alive. I used to love that stuff. If only I could get as excited about Christian music.

There was a band at NYR that loved to play "this is how we overcome". And everybody sang it while jumping up and down. And I think to myself "jumping up and down is how we overcome?" What are we overcoming? laziness? arthritis?

Hey, Doug-- Obviously you didn't remember my second post on this topic, where I wrote: "The worst worship songs? 'Could Have Been Songs.' Songs that could have been great worship songs if the worship writer had allowed himself to step out of his subjective attachment for a few minutes, even just to ask, 'Hey, are there any lines or images in here that just don't work for you?'" Or perhaps you DID remember it. There's no easy way to suggest this, but your last post sounds suspiciously like plagerism. There, I said it. It may sound like I am shamelessly directing all glory from this thought straight into my head and away from you. Perhaps I am. But in my defense, it is rare that I have an original thought, and I don't want you stealing this one. Besides, why are you trying to make this about me at all? It's about you, and your stealing. I expect a written apology, and I can only assume that God expects passionate and clearly articulated confession of repentence. Perhaps you should even sing "Create In Me A Clean Heart," but I cannot say for sure. When you have done these things, we can be friends again (probably). Humble in Christ, Rob

Rob, Screw you and the small truck you tried to rent. -Doug

Rob, In Doug's defense, you did rent a small truck. -peter

Rob, Yes, you may have said _some_ things that are vaguely similar. But maybe you were stealing from things I said in those so-called "discipleship" meetings we used to have (now I see it was just you mining my choicest bits of insight so you could use them in sermons and on blogs). After much prayer and fasting I've decided a public rebuke is the only way to go. Consider this confronting you alone, with another brother (Peter, come to my aid here) and in front of the church of the net (in this fast-paced day we have to speed things up, I'm just being culturally relevant). Consider this your first and last warning. I don't want you to be guilty of the sin that leads to death, but I also don't want to be judged for praying for you. Through God's grace I've been granted the ability to show you mercy and have purchased some extra large rocks to make your stoning as swift and painless as possible. Your loving brother in Christ, Doug

I hope everyone on here is speaking from personal experience. I mean because...you've all lead worship before right? You know how much time and prayer goes into it right? Oh ok, good. I was worried that you're all pew warmers, who have too much time on your hands. Seriously though, I came across this sight only because I was looking for a song for the service I'm supposed to be leading tonight. Now I don't even feel like it. I'll be up there wondering, who am I offending? And who's criticizing me? How can I please all these people? When in fact, isn't worship about God? That's what I thought anyways. You know, sometimes we have to do things we don't want, like, God forbid, sing a song that doesn't make us happy. Of course, there are songs I don't like, but it's not all about me. And it's not all about you either.

*feeling properly scolded* now I understand, the words don't have to apply to actually praising God as long as the worship leader assures me that it is..and as long as I can hum a catchy tune.

"I'll be up there wondering, who am I offending? And who's criticizing me? How can I please all these people?" Gwen it seems to me that you think that leading worship is about you. I hope that you have understood the purpose of this blog entry. Let's not be so judgemental!!!

I must say that I'm with Gwen...while reading these posts, the thought came to me as well that it would be hard to please some of you. I'm not sure the author of this blog had intended on this becoming what it has turned out to be. It was funny to see someone say "let's not be so judgemental" when that is the exact road this blog has taken. Practically every post (with the exception of the first one) is filled with judgmental critisism. It's ok to have an opinion about a song...there are plenty that I don't like and a few that I just don't get. But, when you sow mercy, you reap mercy. I am a worship leader and I understand that a song should be one the congregation enjoys. People sing more from the heart when it's a song they enjoy singing. But how do we please everyone? One person HATES "Trading My Sorrow" and the guy next to him loves it. Another person will puke if they hear "Shout to the Lord" one more time, when the woman in front of them, who knows the story of the song's creation and has the same experience of the writer, loves the song because it touches something deep in her which sends her into deeper worship of God because she knows He understands her pain? So what do we do? I'll tell you what I do. I pray. I seek the Lord for the songs I sing and leave the rest to Him. I do not rely on the reaction of people to tell me if the worship set was good or not. If I've done my best, then that's all that's required of me. If people want to criticize, then they will criticize...nothing I do will change that. So sing on worship leaders! Sing to the Lord...not to the crowd. Be Blessed Today and Always!

Why are so many worship leaders "me" focused. God calls his people to worship...not to be lead in worship. Trix

PEOPLE PLEASE!!! This is getting WAY out of hand, and I don't think it's honoring God. Now for the last time, the past tense of 'lead' is spelled 'led.' I'm sorry to anyone I've offended (except, of course, Rob--I think we can all agree that we are now to treat him as an unbeliever; thanks for leading the way here, Doug). I know that you made your best attempt at spelling, and I am sure that God saw your 'almost' and credited it to you as correct. I hate Webster and all his cynical friends. -p

'led' is also used as the past participle. -p

Didn't you mean to say "thanks for LEDING the way Doug?" and please, let's leave Emannuel Lewis out of this...I don't remember that t.v show being that cynical...Gary Coleman and Different Strokes on the other hand! Trix

i like chocolate donuts!

Yes, chocolate donuts are great!

hey, i just stopped by, and just wondered.. ARE YOU GUYS CHRISTIAN?????? ARE YOU GUYS CHRISTIAN?????? ARE YOU GUYS CHRISTIAN?????? ARE YOU GUYS CHRISTIAN?????? ARE YOU GUYS CHRISTIAN?????? ARE YOU GUYS CHRISTIAN?????? ARE YOU GUYS CHRISTIAN?????? ARE YOU GUYS CHRISTIAN?????? ARE YOU GUYS CHRISTIAN?????? ARE YOU GUYS CHRISTIAN?????? ARE YOU GUYS CHRISTIAN?????? ARE YOU GUYS CHRISTIAN?????? ARE YOU GUYS CHRISTIAN?????? ARE YOU GUYS CHRISTIAN?????? ARE YOU GUYS CHRISTIAN?????? ARE YOU GUYS CHRISTIAN?????? ARE YOU GUYS CHRISTIAN?????? ARE YOU GUYS CHRISTIAN?????? ARE YOU GUYS CHRISTIAN?????? ARE YOU GUYS CHRISTIAN?????? ARE YOU GUYS CHRISTIAN?????? ARE YOU GUYS CHRISTIAN?????? Somebody who IS Christian, and believe in God, don't be confused by these Satan-Worshippers. Just sing to God w/ All your Heart. Praising and Worshipping.. it's like you're bagging for your tiny-dirty-worthless life to God. and when you're bagging for life, do you think you can think of anything else??? don't get smart, and don't complain about melodies, lyrics and instruments. Melodies and Instruments, for me, it's not important. why? because i'm not a talented musician?? NO i bet i am better musician than ALL of you. I Learned music when i was in age of 5. i can play Five different instuments perfectly. but i don't care about melodies and instruments. Why? the Hearts are Important. I saw one group which had Guitarist and 6 people. They can't sing in tune, and Guitarguy can't play at all!!! but they sang So Loud and sang w/ ALL their HEARTS. after they were finished, i had tear in my eyes. guys. Heart is important. nothing Else. if you think"this lyric sux, i can't understand.." or "this lyric doesn't go w/ the music", you're Messed Up Already. and about the Lyrics. try to understand it, look through bible and find that verse. if you can't find it, ask somebody. you say lyrics are too hard, and it's grammatically wrong, but when you understand it, it comes together, stronger. Sing with All your heart. God Bless you

Don't try to Tackle me because my grammer isn't very good. i came to USA exactly 3 years ago.

The was the greatest thing I've read on this whole page. I miss Eric Wright.

I miss Eric too :(

Feeling appropriately guilty for my "Satan-worshipping"...

Beom That's true but we are also called to love with all our minds as well. God gave us brains so we need to continually think about what we are singing in churches. I like this page because it shows that people aren't just mindless people going through the motions. It shows that they care about the songs that we sing when we worship an awesome God.

hmmmm, interesting site! I laughed, I agreed, I thought of songs that have come and gone. I do believe that some praise and worship songs will definitely stand the test of time. I haven't sung "Shine Jesus Shine" in ages, and that's ok. There are others I have forgotten about. And that's ok too. And I do think that poorly written praise and worship has done one thing for me: it has helped me appreciate those timeless hymns all the more. When planning worship I do try to plan for blended worship, using some old and some new. I also try to incorporate them into movements, so that the songs are appropriately used with some sense of purpose and not just thrown out there. Sing with your heart? Yes, of course. And depending on the mood, sometimes a praise and worship song will resonate with me and how I want to epxress myself to God and sometimes it won't. The thing I realize is that not every song and not every worship service will speak to me in the same way. What hits me one week may not even stir me the next. It's important to see the bigger picture and think about how the CUMULATIVE act of faithfully offering ourselves to God in prayer, in hearing his Word, in bringing our gifts and offerings, and yes, even singing our praises will build us up for a lifetime. And sing with our minds. I feel that the songs need to complement what's going on in the theme of the worship service. This website and blog has been somewhat fun because it's afforded a chance to laugh at ourselves...I know we do take worship seriously, and want it to be the best it can be. But as worship leaders and pastors we've all had our moments of blunders, or even moments during the singing of our songs that "this isn't working" yet we keep on anyway... We're not perfect and our worship isn't perfect...But God expect us to make sure it's perfect, he wants our hearts, and he wants our lives. Let's keep working at it! Rick

instrument worship is the devil, barry poyner told me so

Aulo, who are you? I assumed you were someone who found the site with Google, until you dropped that name.

aulo went to cccb, he's hosted by ebrandon.net he's a cool guy and counsels meth users aulo's site he's also friends with Jen (kansaswolf)

Ok. But how do you know Barry Poyner? And how do you know that I know him?

Well I heard you talk about Truman State before (my wife graduated from there this year) and I also think I heard you talk about the Church of Christ. Nobody can be in Kirksville and involved in the COC without knowing Barry. When I was just dating my wife, I'd drive up to K-ville from Moberly with my roommate Brandon (host of ebrandon.net), I tried to hook Brandon up with Mandy's roommate, Crystal Shriver, who went to church with Barry Poyner. Anyway, Barry's a good guy, but it's frustrating talking to ppl from that church about Christian liberties. Crystal told me that they don't recognize the church of christ in Macon because they have a kitchen in their basement. That kind of stuff.

dude, i cannot believe you brought up the kitchen issue again. that really hacks me off, i can't talk to either of you. ever. again. sinners.

I think you may have it backwards. Barry's church had a kitchen, the one in Macon didn't. In fact, I was told before I went to school that I needed to drive to Macon every week so I could go to a 'sound' church, viz, one that didn't have a kitchen. I went to Kirksville instead, a liberal church compared to the one I grew up in, and that's why some poeple think I went down the tubes. I could go on. If you want to swap some stories you can email me.

I guess I do have it wrong, all I know is what I've heard from Crystal and Brandon, nothing first-hand. Sorry for the misunderstanding

oh, and I counseled Meth users while I was in Kirksville, Gringo, here in Kansas City it's mostly Crack and Herion :-)

To the author of this ridiculous website... I was on the web searching for good worship songs and stumbled onto this. I would not want you to be the worship leader at my church. I don't think that anyone who refers to themselves as a cynical jerk can efectively lead anyone into the presence of God. Instead of spending so much time tearing down songs that exalt a holy God, why don't you write some yourself if you think you can do better... but I guess griping and complaining is easier(even though God teaches against it).

Thad, I've been following this discussion since its inception but have not decided to post until now. Several people have, like you, offered criticism of its existence; however for some reason yours strikes me as the most illogical and bitter. In fact, some might say yours are also the words of a cynical jerk. After all, your post was nothing more than griping and complaining. However as a brother in Christ, I do not wish to call you names or even call your objection to this discussion into question. You are entitled to do so, and at times some posts have come pretty close to crossing the line. I guess it's just the presentation of your thoughts that bothers me. First, you say you were "on the web searching for GOOD worship songs." Clearly, then, you admit the existence of bad ones. What makes them bad? Would you tell anyone they're bad? Would you sing them if they were bad? When you find one on the Internet, how do you decide if it is good? Were you looking on the Internet for good songs because your church been spending too much time playing bad worship songs? Does the fact that a song exalts a holy God make it good by default? Will the good songs you're looking for be good for everyone? What will you do if the songs you find are not good in everyone's opinion? The author of this discussion simply wants to discuss these questions rather than ignore them as you have chosen to do. Second, I wish you had read the entire first post. You challenge the author to write something if she thinks she can do better. In the 4th sentence of the post, she admits she cannot: "In no way have I or would I ever pretend to be able to write a worship song." I agree that if Christians believe there is a problem, they should do everything in their power to solve it. One solution would be to write new songs. But, lacking that musical talent, what would you have someone do? The author has chosen this discussion, but you find it unacceptable. Is there another way to improve music in churches? Perhaps we should simply look on the Internet for better songs. Finally, I am irritated because you fail to recognize that the author is willing to include these "bad" songs in worship for the benefit of the whole church body. If you read all 150 or so posts in this discussion, you would quickly find that though these people are disappointed by many songs, we all know that the body of Christ is more important than any individual. After leaving this website, I hope you were able to find the good worship songs you were looking for. In a short while, I expect that this same author will be posting a list of her favorite worship songs, and perhaps you can check back then to see how these same people feel about songs that inspire them to fall at God's feet and become immersed in His holiness. Thank you for your time. by His grace, Tim

Somehow people who criticize what is going on here miss a few important things: 1. You are judging this conversation as not leading anyone closer to God because we are judging that some worship songs are not leading us closer to God. So we are engaged in the same critical task. a. The difference is, first, that you think that this discussion could never lead anyone closer to God because it doesn't edify you. We very plainly say that just because a song doesn't edify us, that doesn't mean it can't be hearfelt worship for someone else. In other words, the first big difference is the kind of selfish blindness that leads to the problems in worship most of us are frustrated with: namely, that people assume whatever is slightly meaningful to them has to be meaningful to others and, conversely, whatever is unappealing to them must be unedifying to everyone. We speak for ourselves, but you try to speak for everyone when no one made you their spokesperson. b. The second difference is arrogance veiling itself as a pious defense of God's holiness. We never venture to say that God is displeased with people when they sing these songs, but you assume you can speak for God in saying that this conversation displeases him. The real difference here is that we are willing to be questioned--even inviting it. You aren't willing to hear disagreeing opinions, so you set yourselves up as defending God so that to question your opinion is to question God. Not only is this unfair and cowardly, it's also dangerous. Just ask the prophets of Jeremiah's day who said they spoke for the Lord when they were really only spouting their own opinions. We speak for ourselves, but you try to speak for God, and has he made you his spokesperson? Be careful. 2. The most popular dissenting line seems to assume something strange: that God accepts any gift offered to him; therefore, there is no need to offer the best things to God, just the most "heartfelt." Where does this idea come from? Certainly, God meets us where we are. That's the whole incarnation principle. But take a closer look at a few passages of scripture: Malachi 1.8: "'When you bring blind animals for sacrifice, is that not wrong? When you sacrifice crippled or diseased animals, is that not wrong? Try offering them to your governor! Would he be pleased with you? Would he accept you?' says the LORD Almighty." This has less to do with the heart of the worshiper than with the quality of the sacrifice. Some sacrifices are better than others. After all, that's one of the major points of the book of Hebrews. So what disqualifies a sacrifice? We could come up with our own opinions, but in the end God is the judge. None of us is pretending to know that God is displeased with one song or another. What we do know is that some songs are less effective at leading us into his presence--not everyone, just us. But as more people add their name to the list of those who think the thrill is gone from "Trading My Sorrows," it starts to become clear that songs have a prime. So let them pass after their prime, then bring them back in a year or two as retro worship. Then they'll be cool again. Sorry for the long post. I hope God isn't displeased with me. What am I saying? He's sitting right here telling me what to type. And now he wants a hotdog. Later.

Maybe we should blame King David for some of the worship songs, he wrote most of them! While we're at it, and we are at it...What do you think about the ridiculous copyright laws to have to pay a license fee to show lyrics for worship songs. I completley understand the need to pay for the right to record someone's song, but isn't paying to display someone's worship song lyrics, missing a bigger point? Trix

wow

Not-so-anonymous confessions of a "Worship Leader": Amazing what you find via Google. My reaction to this thread- I laughed, I cried, it made me mad, it made me think. I was glad to see I only use two songs on the original list of five. From my perspective, I strive in prayer and preparation to offer God a pleasing sacrifice and do a thoughtful job of leading a congregation of 250 in song every Sunday. I learn a lot through the experience. I have learned not to take criticism too seriously. I have learned you can't please everybody. I have learned to laugh at my own mistakes, musically and spriritually-- and I have most importantly learned that I am but one of many examples of an imperfect vessel through which God chooses to do His work. Frankly, God is often glorified in spite of us, rather than because of us. Thanks for the humorous observations. I'm glad I'm not alone in how I feel about "I'm Trading My Sorrows," "Every Move I Make" (never thought about the similarity to "Centerfold" before) and that little "you're the best" line in "Knowing You." That said, let me add that I'm troubled by an arrogance I often observe in the Christian community that is disguised as "honesty." It seems to be a favored sport to criticize anything "popular." Ed: What would you do differently? You eschew the traditional and lampoon the contemporary, so what do you want? Peter: What in your eyes constitutes a proper musical sacrifice? If only professional quality musicians make cut, well- there may be a lot of quiet churches (Hmm, that actually may not be a bad thing.Come to think of it,silence is actually very musical). Well, back to my Google search for worship music. Jim

Here are a few nominees- 1) "When The Spirit of The Lord Moves In My Heart (I Will Sing Like David Sang)". You know this one, you merely change one word every verse Sing...Clap...Dance. A couple of funny stories from a church where I was one of four worship leaders who took turns. We had a team who insisted on doing this dreaded number. Once, when we were having Sunday service in the park, this couple who was drunk took the verse seriously started swing dancing in front of the stage! Pretty funny, especially since I wasn;t the one leading worship. One year, this same group did this same song for Easter. We had a visitor who had just returned from Israel, and I remember looking up during this verse, and I see this guy spinning and dancing like a whirling dervish! Of course, no one else really ever danced to this song. 2) "Trading My Sorrows"- My drummer begged me to do this song, but I'm sorry the...."yes Lord, yes Lord, yes, yes, Lord..." "No way, no way, no no way..." 3)New Category: Spiritual Warfare Songs- "Mighty Man of War"- The whole post-Carman, "we're gonna kick the devil's butt" mentality has a real militaristic tone that even makes this political conservative squeamish. 4) "I Love You With The Love of the Lord"- Very syrupy, and Heaven forbid the worship leader makes you turn to the person next to you and sing it. (AAAGGGHHHH!!!!!) 5) "Worthy, You Are Worthy"- nominated just because of a lack of lyrical substance. This song must've taken 5 minutes to write. Jim

Unless I misread my Scripture, according to Galations 5:22-23,"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law." In what I have read here, I have found cynicism. Why? Where in Scriptures do you find that God has given you a spirit of cynisism? Yes, there are a lot of worship songs out there that are not good. Yes, there are a lot of "worship songs" out there that are not worship song. Yes, there are a lot of "worship songs" out there that are not Scriptual in anyway, but where did the spirit of cynicism come from? As a worship leader, there are a lot of "worship songs" that I have refuse to include, but I don't sit around and criticize these songs to other Christians. The spirit of criticism is not from God. We're told in Philippians 4:8 "Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute(admirable), if there is any excellence, and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things." We are called to be Christ-like and Christ wasn't cynical. If you have found yourself to be cynical, it's time to hit your knees, spend time in the Scriptures, and time in prayer asking God to reveal to you what causes you to look at things through eye other than His. If you are cynical about anything, how long is it until you become cynical about God? Give Satan an inch and he'll take a mile. Give into him a little and before long, he'll have all of you. Believe me. I've been a Christian for 32 years now and I'm ashamed to admit that I questioned God and I stood in defiance of God for four years after my father died. At the end of those years, I committed a felony. I destroyed the lives of several people that I loved. I tried to commit suicide because of the shame and guilt that I felt when I had a Divine intervention. No, He didn't manifest Himself to me. No, He didn't audibly speak to me. He use a picture of my son to get my attention. As I knelt crying, I felt His Spirit asking if I was finally ready to get right with Him. I spent four years away from the people I loved. I got God's forgiveness, but I still had to pay the concequences for my actions. It all started by my letting cynicism enter my life. I wish I could help you understand why it's dangerous to let Satan have any part in your lives. It doesn't just affect you, it affects your loved ones, your church, and those unsaved watching your lives. If they see no difference in your speech, lives, or attitude than theirs, how will you ever reach them for Christ? Don't give Satan a foothold in your life. Get rid of that cynical spirit. Memorize Philippians 4:8 and live by it. Your servant in Christ, Greg

You mean criticism isn't a spiritual gift????? Uh oh... I gotta tell someone about this... john

Cynicism: An attitude of scornful or jaded negativity, especially a general distrust of the integrity or professed motives of others. I got that from dictionary.com. I don't think that there is a spirit of cynicism here. I think that we all are striving to give God the best--a striving for excellence. Criticism: The practice of analyzing, classifying, interpreting, or evaluating literary or other artistic works. I also got this definition from dictionary.com (at least the one that fit). Where in the Bible does it say that criticism is a sin? Sometimes constructive criticism is needed in order to evaluate and to re-examine our motives. This is especially true when leading worship. We need to be grounded in the Word and open to the Holy Spirit. Just my 2 cents (in Canadian pennies!!).

I love this thread

I can understand what he's saying about cynicism, but again, that's not what this is about. If we always just settled for what was handed to us, never challenging and expressing our need for something bigger and better, our lives as well as our spirituality and theology would be centuries behind. I mean, people from Michael Moore to Aristotle prove that. Along with Thomas Jefferson, Martin Luther, Leonardo DaVinci, etc. And believe it or not, we can even include Jesus and all those people in his ancestry from the Old Testament. Now I don't think worship music is as world changing as literacy or democracy was (could it be though?), but it seems under Greg's thinking, all these people were also cynical. Is this spirit of cynicism in the Bible? Well Moses fought pretty hard to change the way his people were allowed to worship. Joshua killed a lot of people trying to find a better home. David worshipped publicly in a way nobody would back then (and hopefully now either). Esther freakin told her king to step off. Hosea married a prostitute out of obedience. Daniel, Joseph, Paul the Apostle, every disciple, Rahab, and not to mention Jesus again. How can you say this isn't in the Bible? I understand what Greg said though and I think he's said some valid things, obviously coming from a very personal place. This forum, however, is not a bitter spewing of doubt and apathy. Aside from a few "you guys are sinners for talking about this" posts, nothing said here comes from anger or from a mind turned away from Christ (very much the opposite in most cases). ...Anyway, this dialogue has been made several times already. If anybody else has a problem with these comments, please read through the discussion before you post something somebody's already said. (Side note: I only bring up M.Moore to show a modern line between cynicism/criticism. Not claiming to disagree or agree with him and please can this be the last time he's mentioned here so this doesn't turn into a completely different discussion. Good then.)

It's good to know we're not the only ones doing this... check it out! http://www.holyobserver.com/detail.php?isu=v01i04&art=repeat

Jim, You asked what I would say qualifies as a proper musical sacrifice, in reference to my point that God does not accept everything that is sent his way. I hope this doesn't get too confused. Here goes: A big source of misunderstanding in this discussion comes down to this: People are speaking not from different sides of the issue, but from different perspectives when considering worship songs. Some confuse a thought from a different perspective with a lie from the pit of hell. Now, I am not saying that everything is about perspective and there's no room for telling people they're wrong, but in this case there are two perspectives at work: 1. This post was begun, and continues predominantly in the "from below" point of view. This is a consideration of worship from our perspective as worshippers, which means that it's concerned with what connects us to God most deeply and effectively. Songs that are distracting are therefore not effective worship songs--not because we're consumers who are only interested in what we can get out of worship, but because we need worship leaders who can lead us deep into the presence of God. 2. Much of the criticism of this conversation comes is in the "from above" perspective. This attempts to view worship from God's perspective, and therefore sees it as arrogant that anyone would decide for God that some songs are crap. The next step is to say what it is that God accepts, and the general feeling seems to be "everything." My point is that some songs fail as worship because they do not lead people into God's presence (some put the fault in the songs, others in the cynicism of the people singing them). The point is that when we are viewing it from below, worship just doesn't happen for some people with some songs. But I felt compelled also to take on the "from above perspective and challenge the idea that God accepts just anything sent his way. I don't know what the criteria are for what worship God accepts or rejects--that would have to come from a careful examination of what God has told us he wants (i.e., looking at scripture). I think that some people have rushed ahead of themselves--and this discussion--in assuming they know what kind of worship pleases God (any song no matter how poorly it connects God's people to God) and what doesn't please God (this conversation, which is more a challenge to them and their beliefs than to God). That's how I see this discussion. I don't know what God's criteria are for acceptable worship--maybe we could start that conversation. But though I don't know the criteria, I know that God does not just accept any praise flung his way.

I've been thinking about your earlier post, Peter, and about the discussion of good vs bad worship. It seems clear there is worship that God doesn't accept (the blighted offerings of Malachi, Cain's grains, etc.) but I also think of 2 Corinithians 8:12 "For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what he does not have." How does one reconcile these ideas? I think those that insist that its the motives/the heart that is behind the sacrifice are probably actually right. However, too often I think we use as an excuse for offering less than our best. Sure God looks at the heart of the giver, but I think the heart has to have more than just sincerity in it. We must select the best of our worship song flock for the altar. The songs we pick may not be perfect, but they must be the best we can do. Offering less than that, however sincerely and lovingly we give the gift, seems ungrateful and dangerous.

And if a song's stupid lyrics make worshippers laugh rather than have their heart on God, then the song has failed in two ways. It's not the best offering possible, and it fails to foster the right motives.

Doug, What's this "2 Corinthians" you speak of? I don't really have anything to add to the good v. bad worship criteria (in the so called "from above" perspective, anyway). Your point is well made, and I think that the verse fits well in this discussion of worship. Here's a preliminary question: Is there a standard for an offering that is either met or not met apart from any consideration of the giver? We'll call this the objective standard. Question 2: Is there a standard for an offering that is either met or not met solely on the basis of the "heart" of the giver (we'll need to define 'heart,' I think)? We'll call this the subjective standard. Question 3: How do the objective and subjective standards relate? Do they have to balance? Does one trump the other? Do they both have to be met in order for the offering to be acceptable? This is just one suggestion for developing our little conversation. Others are welcome, as are modifications.

Wow. What an animal. I googled this looking for "Dimestore Prophets" an old band I used to work with. Anyway, I stumbled across this thread, and I have to admit, after leading praise and worship for 10 years, I really appreciated it. The thing is- there are musical tastes and cultural differences and that's okay. I always knew that in picking songs, not every one person is going to love every one melody, every one lyric, etc., now that i am no longer leading worship, i admit, that there are certain songs that are not my favorite - i sort of squirm over some of the songwriting, but i do try to worship anyway. i have my faves. but something, that i have noticed, is that it does help in the humility and attitude of those who are leading worship. our current worship leader is so cool and so sincere, that i find myself WANTING to like all the songs he likes. he has a gift. i have had this discussion with my boyfriend who has played guitar for 20 years and isn't crazy about many worship tunes. i did challenge him that it is a choice and an attitude. you would be amazed and what you can get out of a song you are sick of, if you plead with God to show you a new song...or a new way of worshiping. When you become "desperate" for the Lord...all those semantics to the songs you don't care for simply melt away. i seriously doubt they have these kind of discussions in third world countries where they are not allowed to worship in public. we have a privelege. let's make a choice and be grateful. but i admit, i did laugh alot while reading this thread. i think it all comes down to balance and being honest. Theresa

The discussion of Worship songs brings up some important questions, "Do we truly worship?" "What is worship?" "When does worship start and when does it end?" "How do you worship?" We use worship songs to "get us in the mood" to "worship" God (often read "get us ready for the Pastor's message"). I have told the church's congregation several times that worship begins when we wake up and ends when we fall asleep, but is that true in our lives? Can we worship God from the time we wake up til the time we go to bed or is that just a nice but unattainable thought? We have a lot of Worship Leader and Team members that hang out here, from what I can tell, so I'm asking you to give your opinions about my questions. Now, to make it harder, answer the question and back up your comments with Scripture, if possible. As Worship Leaders, do we inspire our congregations to worship by our lives, "stage presence", or our "charisma"? As Worship Leaders would we rather hear Josh Groban (one of my favorite singers {not Christian music, by the way}) sing worship songs for money or hear the praise songs from a tone-deaf, couldn't carry a note in a bucket, fingernail on blackboard church member? Where are our hearts in the worship service? Do we cry when we sing certain songs (the good kind of cry because of God's goodness) or are we unflappable? When we approach a worship service, is it with prayer or with calculations to evoke a certain emotion? Do our hearts break as we sing "It is well with my Soul" to a congregation who has a woman with two mastectomy and has just been told that she has lung cancer? Were are our heart? Do we have hearts of worship? What in our lives drive us to our knees to worship? Do we worship because of God's blessings, or because of His forgiveness? Are we seeing ourselves through God's eyes or through our own eyes? Do we praise God's Holiness or just sing about His Love forever (I do like this song, by the way)? Where does true worship start? In my opinion, we have to go to Isaiah 6:1-8 to start. The king had died and Isaiah, the most godly man in all Judah saw God sitting on a throne. He then saw the Seraphim hiding their faces with 2 of their wings, hiding their feet with 2 more of their wings, and flying with their last 2 wings. He then heard the Seraphim echoing back and forth, "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord of Host" What was Isaiah's reaction? I am majorly screwed (my paraphrase, not quite Scripture). "Woe is me! For I am ruined." Isaiah saw God as He is and then saw himself as he was and came to the conclusion that he was a sinner. "I am a man of unclean lips and am from a nation of unclean lips." Nothing that comes from my mouth is Holy. All this from the most godly man in all of Judah. If, as Worship Leaders, we see God as he truly is, "Holy, Holy, Holy" and we see ourselves for what we are, sinners without hope, we've taken the first step toward true worship. Then one of the Seraphim took a burning coal from the alter and put it on Isaiah's lips telling him that his sins had been forgiven. God then asked "Whom shall I send, who will go for Us?" Isaiah's response was "Here am I, send me". Isaiah worshipped God with his actions, his willingness to be used by God. What are we willing to do for God and the furthering of His kingdom? What actions are we doing that would be considered worship? Is worship only singing praise to God or is it more than music? Can picking up an elderly shut-in saint and bringing them to church be considered worship? As Worship Leaders our "job" is to have songs aimed at "getting the congregation in the right frame of mind for the services", but is that considered true worship? I am eager to read your responses. Your servant in Christ, Greg Wilcher

P. S. Sorry about the hard-hitting questions, but "as iron sharpens iron" Christians should sharpen other Christians. It boils down to do we really, really, truly want to worship God? Are we willing to open our sinfulness to God's Holiness and make the appropriate changes? Tough questions but worth digging into to answer, to find out where we stand and why. Your servant in Christ, Greg Wilcher

My head hurts...

Greg, We tend to use the word "worship" in a number of different ways. I agree that we should think of singing, giving, praying, taking communion, and listening to a sermon as part of a larger life of worship. But there is something special about meeting weekly, which we do 1) tp coporately express our devotion to God, and 2) to encounter his presence in the community of saints. As you point out, such encounter with God and expression of praise often starts with contrition, but often exhibits itself in practical love, empathy for the hurting, thanksgiving, celebration, adoration of God because of his divine attributes, and in many other ways. Isn't it appropriate, then, that we seek to give voice to all these forms of worship in our songs? That can be challenging work, but I don't subsribe to the notion that simply because God CAN work through the worst situations, that we shouldn't strive to do our best. As worship leaders, we should strive to meet that challenge, to give voice to all the expressions of praise waiting to be sung. It seems that most of the criticisms here come from a motivation to make our corporate worship better: to allow our brothers and sisters to more fully express their devotion to God, and to allow them to more fully experience his presence. Making that a part of a larger life of worship is important, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't concern ourselves with the particulars of our church services.

Greg You asked approximately 26 questions in your long post!!! Could you cut it down to one or two so that our heads don't explode? Can you do that? Is that possible? Will you? Won't you? Please? hehe.

Shouldn't there be a prize for anyone who answers the 26 questions correctly? At least a weekly drawing? Well said Nate, anyone who has taken the time to carefuly comb over the posts instead of just grabbing the hot buttons would pick up that all of this comes out of a desire for better worship, the heart to draw closer to God. One of our church's core values is "Everything with Excellence" That means that we put everything we do under a microscope. Do we miss the mark sometimes...Yes! Does that mean that nobody was blessed...No! But it also means that we don't say to ourselves "Well, we know that some people were blessed, so let's just do that again." No, we look at how we can improve on that. Trix

Did a google. Found you. Kindred spirits. Need help. But first, my all-time favorite top worst worship line is from my all-time favorite top worst worship songs (those horrid River songs - and I am one who unfortunately KNOWS what this "river" is "they" sing about) -"dancers who dance upon injustice." And my church sings this frequently. I've even asked the music "minister" what that line means. Looked like he had lice! (Scratching his head and all!) Still plays it. Help me here - I truly need your input into this. "Lord, Reign in me, Reign in your power, over all my dreams in my darkest hour....lord reign in me again." 1. Does God reign in me? 2. And if he does, does he have to reign in me "again" like, where'd he go that he has to come back again. I've searched but I cannot fine one scriptural support to this song. Can you?

Well... I really like 'Lord I lift Your name in High... it's like one of the only 'worship' songs with the gospel in it! You guys should all check out EMU - www.emu.mu they have some rally great biblical stuff... (or my stuff too... :p ) I really don't like emotion driven songs... they need to proclaim God and the gospel!

Lisa, here's my best attempt: 'reign' and 'in' should go together, as in, "i need to be reigned in, because i'm going astray like a wild horse." that's where the 'again' part comes in--i was put in the stables, but then i jumped the fence and roamed free again. now i need the Holy Cowboy to bring me back. it's all clear once you see it from a horse's perspective. "over all my dreams in my darkest hour"--i can only assume that this is referring to dreaming at night. so all those sinful day dreams get exempted from the song. that's good news indeed! -peter

For clarity's sake, we could sing it: Lord reign me in, reign my heart in . . . I think I'll start singing it that way. Maybe we could use sugar cubes and oats for communion to really drive the message home.

Lisa I think that you have to take the whole chorus (well whole song i guess)into context: Open up the doors and let the music play. Let the streets resound with singing. Songs that bring your hope, And songs that bring your joy. Dancers who dance upon injustice. I think that the last part is about celebration. When a person comes to Christ there is much celebration and joy both up in heaven and down here on earth. For the justice part look at Micah 6:8. As for the river songs. I think some of them are okay but they have to be sung in the right context. Which river song are you referring to anyways? What is the river that you know about?

There is a movement afloat in churches across the world who are teaching an aberant gospel. This movement is called the River Movement. You can go to your local bookstores and get books about it (most are written by River Movement folk about how great the River Movement is). In a nutshell, the River Movement states this: God is moving in a new and different way in these last days. In this new and different way, God is speaking to His people by His prophets (not Isaiah, Ezekiel, Amos and Joel). These modern-day prophets are speaking new and different things from God. And if you, the Christian, want to be where God is at, you better listen to these modern-day prophets cuz they have "the revelation" from God and you don't if you aren't with them. So you have to get into the flow with them to be in God's will. They call the place of God's new revelation the River. There are also many "streams" in this River. There is the stream of prophesy, which I mentioned. There is the stream of intercession - and many other streams. I have seen this River myself first hand. I went to a church years ago when we lived in a large city. We were there for a year. Then we moved away. When we went back for a weekend visit, the church had "gotten blessed" by God and they were in this River. It was very sad to see it. The people were acting demon possessed (literally, they were acting drunken, falling down, even vomiting in the aisles). They had been doing this "blessed" thing they said for 2 years. The guest speaker could not read out of the Bible. He was too overcome with the "Spirit" to read. He could only shout and make "Cock-a-doodle doo" sounds. (Well, he did manage to point his finger at my husband and I for not getting in the River - we were sitting normally - like you do at church - and since we weren't making drunken revelings, we were condemned for not being in the River spirit.) This River movement is making headways into my church now. At least one person has been trying to bring it in, but since I know what it's all about, I'm trying hard to reveal it for what it is. This person is trying to bring in false prophesies to the ladies and I am standing and saying, "but this guy is a false prophet." He said that there would be a cure for AIDS in 2002 and that has not happened. He said God would be president of the USA in 2000. And that did not happen. Let me tell you, folks, this is a weird movement but people, intelligent people are FALLING for it. Satan is wily and he's bamboozled some very dear friends of ours. Not only are there these weird outward manifestations of the River, their theology is all wrong - as I'm sure you've been able to pick up from the little I've said here. I found an excellent article on this River Movement. Just found the article 5 days ago but it is so accurate. I recommend you read it and see if you don't see the meaning of the River songs after you do. It will open your eyes up to some of the issues we've seen discussed on this list. It's a long article, but it reads easy, like a testimony. Please let me know what you think after you read it. I'm very interested in hearing your opinion. And it is because of their wrong theology that I'm questioning that song about God reigning in me. (But this song is just a tiny little side issue.) So here's the link. I hope it is ok to post. Danny, I'm sorry if it against your policy and ask that you remove it if it goes against your wishes. The article is called The Way of Cain and can be found here; http://www.apologeticsindex.org/r06.html

Which river songs are you talking about? Are you referring to every single song that has 'river' in it? I am just wondering because I think we need to make a distinction here. I have never heard of this movement so it has piqued my interest. If its from God it will stand the test of time but if not it will die out. And I just thought the River referred to the one in Revelation...

I'm talking about the river songs put out by the River Movement people. It's hard to pinpoint exactly who the River people are cuz many of them don't come right out and declare who they are. They go by many different names. Most have been written in the last 15 years, give or take. Satan can only imitate what God has done. He can only counterfeit true things. There is a true river - absolutely. And there is now a false river. We must do as the Bereans did and examine all things. If we come upon a river song, look into it. Don't take it at face value. Really read it. Does it glorify God or does it glorify the river and/or the things in the river? If you read that article I linked, you'll start to understand the differences in the true River and this false one. Has anyone read it yet? What do you think?

Hi. Thank you for your answers, Nate. I agree that we should worship God in our songs. Scripture tells us that whatever we do, we should do it to glorify God. Hey, Joel, I don't want your head to explode, but I can be long winded sometimes (imagine that). Trix, the only one that can say whether the answer to my questions are correct is God Himself, so I wouldn't hold my breath for a weekly drawing just yet. There are so many ways to worship God and I was interested in everyones thoughts about my questions. What touches my heart and puts me in a worship mood might never get the congregation to worship and, conversely, a song that doesn't cause me to worship, might break anothers heart and cause them to worship God. Lisa, thank you for the website. I bookmarked it for future reference. I did read the link and feel that if God's people would read their Scriptures, then they wouldn't be so easily taken in by all these cults out there. Heb. 1:1-2 tells us that in times past God spoke to us through the prophets but now He has spoken to us through His Son. These people who claim that God has given them some "new" or "special" revelation haven't read Paul. Paul wrote that if anyone even an angel comes preaching any other gospel, let them be accursed, eternally condemned. He was saying that they would be damned for all eternity. That's a pretty scary thought, but you don't mess around with God's Word. Thank you for the warning on the River Movement. We must remember that anything that takes God's glory away from Him is of Satan. Remember that Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. I am looking forward to all the responses to your posting and to mine. God bless you and your walk with God. Your servant in Christ, Greg

I'm as stumped about this River Movement as anyone else. I'll ask around down here and try to find out who's responsible. Just thought I'd set the record straight. Love, Satan

P.S.: I wrote the "Yes, Lord" song.

I knew it!

Listen, I'll take credit for all the boy bands...Yes it's true that they all sold their souls to me and I did write their songs...But for the love of the dark forces of evil, DON'T TRY TO PIN THAT "YES LORD" SONG ON ME! Deceitfully yours, Satan Official Title: Prince of Darkness

I can't believe I haven't seen mention of "The Trees of the Fields will Clap Their Hands." Again, not all scripture references translate well into worship. Somebody had to have been stoned out of their heads in order to piece together this incoherent piece of drivel. My IQ drops about twenty points every time its played at my church. I usually spend the entire 'hymn' thinking to myself "where's a sniper when you need one?"

I don't know if you were just asking random people about what the river means to them in songs, but the river symolizes how if we drink from His river we'll never go thirsty again and it is like He is flowing through us.

What are examples of "best" praise songs? I think I need about 200 opinions to get a sense of where you all are coming from. Someone tell me what songs grab them and make them worship Him...I'm dying to know...Anybody got a message from heaven?

They tell me I have A.D.D. They just don't understand. Oh, look, a chicken!

I've read through about half of these "comments" and I now find it no mystery what is wrong with "the church". How have we become more concerned with the songs we sing, than with the heart in which we are singing them. Example: David's Psalms which are songs and poems of praise that sometimes, maybe just to me, are difficult to sing. Why? I'll let you figure it out. But, would I or you be so bold as to question the heart of David, who was a man after God's heart? This is what we are doing by "voicing" our opinions. We are questioning the heart of the writer. You might say, "oh no I just don't like the song." Fine. But, let me ask you this, if a man writes something for God, from God, what right do I have to judge that work? The only right is given through the test of God's word, NOT our opinions.

I just have one question for all of you posting on this blog: What would an unbeleiver think about Christianity, the way Christians worship, and the way Christians interact with each other if this blog were the only source of information? We are to be a light to the world--is this blog adhering to that biblical mandate? (OK, that's two questions--give me a break!) -Kevin

this might be one of the funniest blog's ever and would now like to add a few pithy comments of my own: 1) I am a white dude who does not ever dance. I do not sing worship songs that suggest otherwise. I have to believe that even in heaven in front of GOD, he would kindly ask me to stop moving my body. It is not pretty. 2) I am a typical male...when I sing or hear a song with the word 'lover' (many worship songs use this word)-I think about sex with my wife. I know that I can think about bedding my wife after church-its all good-but not what I want during worship. She knows this too and cringes when we sing songs containing this lyric-guys I know you feel my pain on this.... 3) The Happy Song/Trading My Sorrows/Every Move I Make (NA NA song) are banned from my car, church, my kids CD players, etc. THEY ARE DANGEROUS TO YOUR HEALTH! 4) First, I love U2. However, I despise the trend by groups to use one of their songs in worship medley or on a worship album. C'mon guys, get creative! 5) "Preachers preach! Singers sing!". Worship leaders, stop talking over the words. If the words need explanation get a new song! 6) I really hate when my wife gets rid of all my pleated pants and replaces them with flat front...oh, wrong place for this topic. McD in Dayton

Kevin: If this blog were the only think an unbeliever knew about Christianity, then may God have mercy on their soul. I have a question for you. What if those five songs that Sara listed were the only thing that an unbeliever knew about Christianity?

hey there blog cabin folk. the future of ccm worship here. wow. this was absolutely beautiful. i wish i could get all of you, every single one of you, together and give you a hug. a big group hug is needed i think. granted i have personal space issues and under normal circumstances would never allow any of you people close enough to poke me with a stick let alone embrace but i am moved. hilarious from start to finish. now, i knew i had it coming. karmic debt. you see in the year 2002 i was in a friend’s car driving south down i35. we were headed to austin and my friend was determined to share some new music he had discovered and was very excited about. i held in my hands the packaging and was following along and was not tremendously displeased aurally, but when we got to track 7 or 8 or it might have been 6, i immediately hit the eject button in simultaneity with the passenger window button and as cd came sliding out and window sliding down in synchronicity i, with cat like reflexes, pulled said cd from the gapping mouth of the player and threw said cd out the now open window. i had messed with texas and the air slapping through the car was fierce and angry. but i had been given no choice. the track was titled “you’re the bomb”. i can not under any circumstances sit through such nonsense. i knew it would come back. i just knew it. but i sat there and smiled with the calm sentiment that i had done us all a favor. oh sure i would pay, but later. and so here i am, as some might say, “reaping what was sown.” the name of the artist whose cd resides on the west side of the highway just north of jarrel tx was david poe. this is true. now odds are this isn’t the same guy, but you can see i had it coming right? and how perfectly fitting this is? i brought it on myself really. i mean i did write the song and it does have two words repeating incessantly seemingly coming from out of nowhere* and i did throw mr poe’s cd into tall texas grass and so my apologies mr poe. i’m sure you had very sound reasons for including such a culturally tired phrase on your recording and it may wound less to know there have been others, many others, who have found themselves flying out windows of cars moving fast through the plains of texas or away from me and a small group of friends standing in a field after the iowa state fair or falling from the brooklyn bridge in new york and so i am somewhat surprised and relieved that i don’t possess more real estate here on this list. karma is a harsh mistress and i’m certain i have more coming. but really i was doing us a favor. all of us...

i will try harder. i promise.
david

*(i must make note that i am not at all responsible for the key change coinciding with the incessantly repeated lyrics. i am innocent! innocent i say!!!)

ps. dear mr poe, here is a short list of fundamental baptist churches i have compiled and contacted on your behalf. they have each assured me that they do indeed appreciate your witty turn of the once popular idiom “you’re the bomb”.

conroe bible baptist church
lompoc baptist church
lowervalley indian baptist church
calvary baptist church simi valley
korat baptist church thailand
twin valley baptist church
bible baptist church of syracuse kansas
liberty baptist church prescott arizona
1st mount pleasant baptist church franklin indiana

they also assure me that they use only the king james bible and none of my songs. i did not ask for this information but it was offered none the less.

Someone posted a link to this on a message board I go to and I was like BRENDOMAN WENT TO CCCB! haha. I wasn't disappointed with this at all (too bad that much can't be said for Central)and I agree with the author fully. Its even worse on some of these songs when people are jumping around and waving their arms around and you just want to be like DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE SINGING?!

And for the record, I have seen someone dance "like we're dancing now." I don't think we've ever done that song at church where someone wasn't dancing. Then again, I'm one of those crazy Pentecostal kids.

Something David Crowder said kinda itches at my brain. He said, "I'll try harder." Now first of all, I know I'm taking this to mean more than he meant by closing off with that, so don't imagine me yelling and attacking him. But worship, of any kind, is just an overflow, a by-product, of loving God with our entire selves. And I believe faith is also. So how exactly do we "try harder" to write better songs or to have stronger faith? It's just a natural expression of what we can't hold in. Just like the best love songs, and the most enraged political songs, are born or true passion and don't take much effort to write, I hope the worship leaders who still write music spend less time working on a song and more time, I don't know... discovering it? The same goes for me, and the strength of my individual faith. But "try harder?" I guess really all that means is to let myself be more vulnerable... in a sense, try less.

I am not alone - what a relief! Next time I stop singing a line in a song (or pretend I can't sing it because I have to do something vitally important like scratch my ear or adjust my watch), I will not feel so isolated and a 'bad' as a Christan, like I'm letting God down because I can't with honesty sing a line. Thank you!
Last week we sang 'Above all', a song currently very popular in our church (Michael W Smith wrote it). As a P&W song I have trouble with the chorus line, 'Like a rose trampled on the ground, he took the fall...'. I know it's pretty and peotic an' all, but it's such a strong image I end up thinking about the poor rose instead of Jesus. Plus, the simile falters because roses don't take the fall for anyone 'cause, well, they're roses. Maybe it's just my personal frailty, but that line really it irks me! Perhaps the song would be better in another context (ie solo with explanation attached).
Anyway, thanks for your insights and I'll endeavour to think clearly (and humbly) about what we sing and say in our church.

I emailed David Crowder at the address listed on davidcrowderband.com to confirm that the above post is actually from him. I just got the reply and it is a genuine comment.

Kudos for Crowder.

I would have to add in there the horrible "Prayer of Jabez" song. Cruddy tune and even worse lyrics. And yes, I know it's "scriptural". It's as much scriptural as singing about not retrieving my horse that's fallen into a well on Sunday.

This thread rocks!

to all the people who think that all of the christian world is above criticism, i would just like to say, be real. people that christians are supposed to reach out to appreciate REALITY. they like it when people are real with them, and can honestly admit when a song is bad. and not all songs glorify God by the way. not all songs have some deeper meaning. and just because a song has a biblical reference doesnt make it a good song. i realize that many of you dissentors may have had good intentions but you are just coming across as hoity toity and holier-than-thou. BE REAL! some songs are bad...


I would like to add to the list 5 of my personal worst songs. Any song that repeats the same thing over and over... case and point: 1. DAYS OF ELIJAH! (There's no God like Jehovah!... i counted 16 times one sunday that this was repeated) 2. SING. just take a look at these lyrics (now is the time for all people from every land to come together... and the chorus: Sing, sing unto the Lord. Open up your heart, make a joyful noise in the sanctuary, sing!....) its about praising the act of praising. not praising God. 3. I CAN ONLY IMAGINE... this is the most overplayed song. and its only about us. besides the fact that it's annoying. 4. LET IT RISE (let the glory of the Lord rise among us... oh- oh- oh, let it rise!) its not even praising God, its about us. 5. MERCY IS FALLING (mercy is falling, is falling, is falling. mercy it falls like a sweet spring rain. mercy is falling, is falling all over me. hey-oh (What the heck is hey-oh?!?) i receive your mercy. hey-oh i receieve your grace. hey-oh i will dance forever more.) and thats the whole song. that one doesnt even need explaining....

man, what a day that would be: mercy falling, glory rising... hey-oh! lol
that was fun. feel free to comment. -Ali

This is something that I've struggled with for many years. I've actually felt like I was losing my passion for worship. So much of the worship music that is sung today is difficult to follow, and in reality doesn't even lead you anywhere. As a musician, and a worship leader I find the tension to try to be more professional and "modern" with my playing style. After all, we're trying to reach a new generation. However, in the process we've created worship songs with such complex rhythms and melodies that no one can sing along with them. Oddly, I have found that one of the greatest cd's put out recently was by Big and Rich. Secular country artist. Given, their music is definetely not that godly, although there are a few songs on the album that have great themes, I've nearly worn out the cd. I can't get the songs out of my head. They are so catchy and singable.I haven't played any of my Christian cd's that much, the music is just way to busy and too much high range sounds that give me a headache! I feel guilty because I find myself humming their tunes more than I do worship tunes, but I think that definetely proves my point. Modern worship songs aren't catchy or even that enjoyable to sing to. Like someone said previously, half the time I spend trying to figure out what I'm singing. It's crazy. Anyway...hopefully there are some of us who can rise up and write some anointed, singable, enjoyable and just downright awesome Worship songs and take the Church into God's Presence for real.

Wow, how can some of you bash the worship that is sent to the throne of God by people with humbly hearts. I mean... surely, you know better than God as to how His Spirit flows... right? I think some of you really should consider this again. I'm not saying that some of you aren't saved, I don't need to. Although, some of you, I am sure of, are not. I wouldn't exactly bash the offering to God... Worshiping should be done in spirit, and in truth, Jesus didn't say to worship in criticism and dislike for the music. Any song to the Lord Jesus should be "Your song" because He saved you from eternal Hell, you shouldn't be picky about what you praise Him with.

It's not that I don't think that songs that are written by many of the "commercialized" worship artists today don't flow from a heart for worship, it's just that it's their experience of worship, and it's very tailored to their own tastes and style. I think that as we write music for congregational singing we need to write stuff that is more friendly for congregational worship. Personally speaking, I write alot of music and for me its worship, but there is little chance that it would be embraced by a congregation for corporate worship.

Once again I feel the need to post.

The John the Baptist wannabe said s/he was sure some of the people posting weren't saved. I've checked my records down here, and I am unable to corroborate that claim.

Not that I wouldn't mind more company.

Just checking in,
Satan

wow this site is wonderful, haha i play every sunday on the worship team and myself have wondered what the crap am i singing and how is this suppose to help lead people to worship God. songs like Days Of Elijah, when we go into the theres no one like Jehovah i just feel like im at a hoedown, then there's this song called Sunrise, "sunrise im gonna praise the Lord, Sunset Im gonna praise the Lord, how the heck can God be glorified to that? 1st off im not even awake when the sun rises 2nd of all when the sun sets im usually doing something other than praising God. i utterly hate that song. Trade n my Sorrows, so sick of playing that song i swear ive played that song at least 2000 times. And Lord I lift Your name on high, i feel like im playing sweet home alabama or something, or "raising God to the roof" when I "lift his name on high". its weird how i get more out of "secular " songs sometimes than i do "christian songs" for example the song Grace by U2, talks about how Grace makes beauty out of ugly things, and it hit me as bono was singing it, that God gives us grace and God makes us beautiful being as though we are ugly and full of sin, now i know its super cheesy but its true. or songs by Damien Rice called "coldwater" or the song i want u to want me, haha jk. but props on this blog

If you are going to write P/W songs please do not write meaningless crap. Put some thought into it, please. With the success of the "worship cd's" out there, everyone is trying to score a "top ten" hit instead of writing genuine, heartfelt songs. My wife and I have gotten so sick of the lame praise songs that are out right now that we started writing our own. We slip our songs into the worship and usually get a great response. We dont tell people that we wrote them unless they ask. But you can tell there is a hunger for songs with substance in the congregation. You dont have to cram a twelve point sermon into a song, just write about God from your heart. Write about what God has done for you, how he makes you feel and how much you love him. Avoid cliches like "God above like a dove with his love" and avoid too much repetition.

My Personal Top 5 Worst

01. Lord of the Dance - Roger Hodges
"You're the Lord of the dance You're the dancing Lord"
This song just sucks. Really sucks. I keep seeing Jesus in tights doing the Riverdance.

02. Open The Eyes Of My Heart - played by every Christian band known on earth - and John Tesh.

Overplayed and overplayed and overplayed and overplayed and...

03. Jehovah Jirah/Blow The Trumpet in Zion/Garment Of Praise and other pseudoJewish songs of the "lets pretend we are Jewish" type

04. "River" songs. Down the river and through the woods to Jesus's house we go

05. Songs with great choruses and crap verses. "Awesome God" comes to mind "When He rolls up His sleeves He ain't just puttin' on the Ritz" What were you smoking when you wrote that line Mr. Mullins?

And dont even get me started on the U2/Creed clones!

you should all check out the book "and now lets move into a time of nonsence" by nick page.
great book. comedy genious, especially the use of the dedication.

but also a serious discussion on the content of worship.

worth a read.

hello all, some one said that they dont like songs that sont appear to fit together well, i like songs that havemultiple ideas in them, thats why i love a lot of what radiohead do.
especially stuff like paranoid android, three distinct concepts involved in that song.
some songs that have 5 mins and 4 verses saying exactly the same thing leave me with my mind wondering.
they dont present the big picture of god.
dont know know, your a lot americans and im a brit. so i suppose we always understand music a little better, thats why the cool american bands make it big in the uk before he states, white stripes classic example.
bye.
anonymous, miserable brit.
sometimes called jimmy

Ummm..... Thanks everyone you have all just ruined my abilities to worship. Every song I hold dear and near are forever tainted by hip movements and grammar instructions. I wonder if people critiqued Van Gough like this.

Our 2 Cents worth:

Songs we hate, in now particular order. We've also felt compelled to explain our thought process.

1. 'The Trees of the Fields Will Clap Their Hands' (Proof that all scripture is not suitable for adaptation into worship music. Might as well write a worship songs based on Ezekiel 23)

2. 'We Choose the Fear of the Lord' (Our church frequently chooses this Vulcan Funeral Dirge to open a worship service. This one just sucks all the energy and enthusiasm out of the sanctuary. Its one of those ones composed by a no talent hack who changes one word from the previous verse and tries to pass it off as a new verse. While you choose the fear of the Lord, I'll be waiting out in the car.)

3. 'Father We Love you, we worship and adore you' (Same reasons as above. Makes me feel like looking around for a long, sharp object to puncture my ear drums.)

4. 'Change my Heart oh God' (Slow, listless and unimaginative tune. Combines most of the potter & clay cliches popular in 'christian' music today')

5. 'As For Me and My House' aka 'The Family Song' (I don't know why, but it makes me want to kill the home-schooled families sitting within a three-pew radius)

6. 'Be Still and Know that I am God' (No I'm not! Every time this one comes up, I just wait for lightning to strike the worship team dead)

7. 'King of Kings and Lord of Lords' (Let's pretend we're Jewish, and while we're at it, let's do so at least four times over. No worship team can ever cut this one off. They just keep going on and on and getting faster and faster. Eventually people just stop singing and they get the message. I usually pretend I'm preoccupied with something important like reading my bulletins from 1999 or trying to quietly open my package of Dentyne Ice without annoying those around me.)

8. "Open the Eyes of my Heart Lord" (Often accompanied my half-assed actions. There's only so many times the word holy can be repeated and still retain its meaning. This song exceeds those limits. Usually performed several octaves too high. Not recommended for people prone to ear aches. Another song that worship teams can't figure out where to end)

9. 'Down at your Feet oh Lord' (Nothing particularly doctrinally or musically wrong. Just horribly over played at our church. Once or worship teams learn something new, they beat it to death, and insist on making the rest of us party to it)

10. 'He is able, More than Able" (Sounds like it was written using a thesaurus. The crappy melody was an after-thought. The words 'accomplish' and concern typically belong in inter-office memorandums)

11. "Heavenly Father I Appreciate You" (See above. Also one of those songs that takes changes a few words from the previous verse and calls it a new verse)

12. "My Life is in You" (Sing, Sing Again, Repeat as Necessary. The commercial I saw for that crappy worship CD showed people jumping up and down uncontrollably with hands in the air. I thought that was happening at our church once. Turns out the lady was choking on one of those Campino candies. I love those things. Peach is my favorite.)

13. "Come, Now is the Time to Worship" (Wait a minute! That explains all the people in suits and dresses! It all makes sense now! One of those songs that presents the blatantly obvious as a profound revelation)

14. "Spirit of the Living God, Fall Fresh on Me" (Every lyric sheet I've seen insists that you repeat 3 times. Lots o' melting and molding cliches again. Really dreary melody. Makes me dozy and inattentive for the rest of the service)

15. "Down the Mountain the River Flows" (and it brings us Pepsi wherever it goes. Crap! Now I'm thirsty and I want to go skiing!)

16. "I Could sing of your Love Forever" (Maybe in heaven, but not here on earth. I'll sing this one through once maximum. So far, I've done an excellent job at surpressing that dancing feeling, foolishness that it is.)

17. "Find me in the River" (Not likely. Our church baptizes people indoors. Besides, standing on your knees in a river is dangerous. Especially if the current picks up and you get swept into a hydro-electric dam. This one doesn't make an ounce of coherent sense. The writer probably had ADD, as he drifts aimlessly from rivers to thorn bushes to valleys. Geography lessons in worship. Yea!)

18. "Deeper" (Anyone who doesn't know how to swim should stay close to the shore. The lifequards will only warn you once. I doubt I will be running to Him or flying to Him any time soon. I wasn't aware you can get to heaven on foot. I don't have an airmiles card either.)

19. "Did you Feel the Mountains Tremble" (Actually no. We live in a flat and desolate area suited mostly to wheat farming. I've never been to the ocean. I thought I heard the ocean roar once, but it turned out it was just an airplane. Inanimate object such as gates seldom respond to my verbal commands. The car broke down on the 401 once. "Work you worthless piece of crap!" I shouted, but it didn't listen.)

20. "Every Move I make I Make in You" (Sounds like a jingle for a highly potent laxative)

It might behoove some of you to examine the heart behind your excoriating critiques of worship songs that are meant, NOT to please your personal musical or poetic taste, BUT RATHER TO EXALT THE GODHEAD. These complaints are so self-centered, it's insulting to the God that is worthy of genuine praise. Our energy should be used for uplifting Christ, but this post is a blackhole of negative synergy. Just consider this, prayerfully.

Hi "name"...it might behoove you, when you attack other people's hearts, to not do it anonymously.

By the way...a couple of weeks ago we sang two songs at church that blew me away:

One went something like this: "Take me away so I can be with you". All I could think of the whole time was this: "Kill me, so I can be with you". I was trying to figure out why we were singing suicidal songs...

The next song had a line about laying my head upon your breast...

"This post is a blackhole of negative synergy."

What does synergy actually mean, anyway?

This thread is awesome.

I've been a worship leader for 15 years and we have a SERIOUS RESPONSIBILITY to worship with our hearts AND minds. You worship leaders who were offended by this thread need to realize that it's more than just rehearsal and practicing your instrument.

We have a solemn duty to provide worship that is in spirit AND truth. Some of you are bent out of shape because we're criticizing worship that is well intentioned. Others are bent because we're criticizing something that people work hard at.

There's more to it than that. GOod intentions are worshless without Truth and if we're singing shallow theologically incorrect songs, we're worshipping in spirit, but not in Truth. Conversely, if we practice real hard and are hitting all the right notes, but don't have thr right attitude behind it, we're just making noise.

This thread is beautiful because it hopefully inspires people to THINK more critically about the "ritual" of worship.

Wow, I don't know any of the songs on the Top 5 list, and only a couple of the others mentioned (although I didn't read through the ENTIRE thread). These are not the same songs that we sing in black churches (at least not the churches I frequent).

But I can definitely relate to some of the categories. We certainly have our share of "movement" songs, which I think should be for Children's Church only. And songs that sound like you would sing them to your significant other ("no one can hold me like you, Lord", what were they thinking?).

By the way, the Five Blind Boys of Alabama (very old black Southern gospel singers) did a recording of Amazing Grace to the tune of The House of the Rising Sun.

The South Park episode that mocked Christian music was brilliant. The "Jesus is my boyfriend" songs must go. :-)

I've been to this site before.
And had wanted to post stuff,
but I had so many things to say about it,
both good and bad, that I eventually gave up

But here I am again,
and I've finally found
what I wanted to say

Just worship.

I think you guys should listen to "Heart of Worship" by Matt Redman.
Then come back and tell me what you think of worship.
And here's the story behind if you're interested:
http://www.higherpraise.com/worship/worship_whenthemusicfades.htm

O and by the way
I'm no worship leader.
I'm not the best singer.
I just love worshipping Jesus.

I don't think there's anybody who's commented here who doesn't love to worship Jesus.

Okay, I'd kinda have to agree on 'Come, now is the time to worship' I don't think that I really bother singing it, especially when it's in the middle of the service! And since it's like, 'come, now is the time to worship' I don't remember any lyrics that praise God directly.
Well, I don't really think that grammer is a big deal when it comes to songs if it's not really noticible, but it's awesome to worship Jesus.

*whew* It took me two days, but I finally read all the comments on this post... "I laughed, I cried, it moved me, Bob..." As I read the first half of the posts, I couldn't stop laughing! So many songs I have refused to sing certain lines of, refused to play in worship sets, or just don't sing...(I've been leading worship music off and on for 10 years, by the way...) Good to know I'm not the only one.

It was rather cathartic to go through all this. Just knowing that other people feel the same way I do about certain songs helps me to focus on God when hearing "bad" music, rather than the music itself. I'm something of a perfectionist, so off-key singers and sub-par musicianship bug me as much as bad songs. Sometimes I find it hard to worship with music in a congregational setting for those reasons, but some of these posts have challenged me to rise above the fact that sometimes church music is bad... (By the by, I currently attend a non-instrumental church, which in itself sometimes drives me nuts. I'm just glad they don't mind me playing my guitar other places...)

I was also slightly miffed that a couple of songs I like are on this list, but at the same time I appreciate the the input. I don't hear a lot of these songs as often as people in more "progressive" churches, so I may just not be as tired of them. And as far as "La la na na" songs, I usually leave that part out when I use them. I appreciate knowing that certain songs have really run their course for a lot of people. I'll be more careful about using them in my song lists!

In a related note, I find it difficult to sing as part of the congregation. I don't mind leading, because that's when my God-given talents are supposed to be used! I try to play and sing perfectly so as to not be noticed. I don't want anything to detract from people's worship. However, when I'm not leading, I seem to distract people... Some of it's "good", as in, "I heard you singing, you have a great voice!" But I feel sad because people were looking around for me instead of paying attention to what they're singing. Some of it's middle-of-the-road, "Wow, you've got a powerful voice, I heard it over the crowd at NYR!" God just gave me a powerful voice, and *usually* that's a good thing! Then there was one person in college who nearly squashed my ability to sing freely in groups. This person's comment (on more than one occasion) was, "You just sing loud to call attention to yourself! You're so selfish and prideful!"

Gag.

At what point does my free singing impinge on another's freedom to worship? Do I just ignore comments such as those three because "my heart is right", or what? My middle of the road "solution" for now is to either not sing at all, or sing tenor, which is low enough most will not hear me. Reading all this has made me think more about this particular issue, because it's really stymied me for a while. Especially now that there's no instruments in my church to help drown me out! I love to worship God in song, but I don't want to hinder others in that quest. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Hey, I love music and think it's one of God's greatest gifts! On that note, I really can sympathize with those who blanch at bad lyrics or repetition.

BUT, be careful guys! Cynicism is a powerful tool of Satan. Try looking on the bright side, acknowledge God in everything, even crappy songs! Other people may really connect with something that is totally rancid to you. It's all for the glory of God and won't be perfect or worthy of Him til Heaven.

Not even the great songs are worthy of His holiness.

Cynicism is a powerful tool of Satan.

I guess, but it's also perfectly normal. There are plenty moments of cynicism in the Bible. I think even Jesus was cynical toward the Pharisees.

Thank you so much for the comment Ross. You're absolutely right about music and cynicism. As a worship leader, however, I can sympathize with those who hate or dislike certain songs; nevertheless, I have to play songs which minister to the congregation. For instance:

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. - KJV

All songs have there place in God's kingdom. It's more about the way we worship, not about what songs we worship with. It's our heart that really matters.

I hesitate to even bring this up, but didn't Enter the Worship Circle do a song called "Because I Am So Sick?
I remember cracking up over the title.
Also, they used goats-foot rattles while stomping on baking pans during the recording process.
Is this even Scriptural?
Does anyone know??
More disturbing was the fact that there was no disclaimer in the album notes saying "No goats were harmed during the making of this album."
Cerainly food for thought.
John

I humbly apologize for leaving the 't' out of 'certainly' in the previous post.

Ohhh yeah.... The song was actually called "Since I am So Sick" and it is on Enter the Worship Circle. Another interesting song title on that album is "Whatever Thing."

They do have some cool songs though.

I wish they would put out an Extreme, or Desperate Worship Circle album. That would really put them at the cutting edge of a radical, Jesus Freak emerging generation.

Also, they used goats-foot rattles while stomping on baking pans during the recording process.
Is this even Scriptural?

I don't think electric guitars and drum kits are necessarily scriptural. I think the important question is: Is it beautiful? Is it interesting? Is it enjoyable to listen to?

Not having heard the music, I can't really say, but it's certainly intriguing.

WOW. THIS DISCUSSIONS GONE ON A LONG TIME HUH ?
HOPE NO ONE MINDS ME POSTING A COMMENT, JUST BEEN TRYING TO READ THRU THE DIVERSE OPINIONS WE ALL HAVE ABOUT THE 'PRAISE & WORSHIP' IN OUR CHURCHES.
WHAT CAN I SAY ? WELL, I AGREE WITH THE STATEMENTS THAT SOME SONGS MUSICALLY, LYRICALLY, STYLISTICALLY ARE NOT GREAT PIECES OF 'MUSIC' AND NOT 'MY' PREFERENCE REALLY. I DONT 'LIKE' SOME AT ALL.
BUT I THINK...HE DOES. OUR GOD. JESUS. THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO COMES TO "INHABIT THE PRAISES OF HIS PEOPLE". HE SEES IT ALL
A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENTLY, AS LONG AS ITS DONE "IN SPIRIT & IN TRUTH"...I THINK 'GOD THE SPIRIT' AS JESUS CALLED HIM APPRECIATES MUSIC IN A DIFFERENT WAY TO US MEN & WOMEN.
OF COURSE...WE COULD THEN DISCUSS WHICH SONGS ARE IN SPIRIT & IN TRUTH AND WHICH AREN'T ...BUT WHO ARE WE TO BE ABLE TO SEE THAT...ONLY OUR HEAVENLY FATHER KNOWS.
AND WHO AM I TO SAY ANYTHING TO ALL OF YOU?.....NOBODY.
I JUST KNOW THIS IS WHAT THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS SHOWING ME. MAYBE HE JUST WANTS US TO GIVE HIM OUR HEARTS A LIL' MORE.
GOD'S LOVE TO ALL WHO READ THIS.

Hey, guys. I know this isn't just CCF posters, but I'll just throw it out anyway. Just wanted to say: I heartily apologize if I ever picked a song to sing at CCF that really drove you crazy. Everybody learns, you know. It just takes some of us longer.

Josh, I think you always picked pretty good stuff. And besides, the song that one person can't stand might be another person's favorite.

Or, then again, the song that's one person's favorite might wreck another person's whole spirituality.

Josh, every time you led "Shout to the Lord" I peed myself and sobbed like a little baby. But, hey--as long as it's your favorite. Okay, not really. Do you still play? Where the hell are you, anyway?

Pedro,

I'm at Purdue University. I'm a doctoral student in cognitive psychology. I study interface design and visual perception. I play sometimes. Kirsten and I help with the music at a college ministry here.

You really like it when I do the echo part on "Shout", don't you? "You're my comfort!!!!" Oh yeah.

Josh

Josh,

Good to hear from you. Remember on the Spring Break trip to Malibu when I was leading worship and stopped before "Shout" to ask that no one sing the tricky echo part? Yeah, I didn't realize until someone told me much later that the young woman leading with me was one of the girls who loved singing that part.

Great job, Peter.

Although, she was never one of the ones who tried to sing it despite not being able to with skill. (Which is a grammatically strange way of saying that she was a good singer and didn't distract people from worship by singing the part.)

That was the same trip Doug went ballistic about that "Your Will" song. The next week Leida, who was not on the trip, asked me to lead at CCF with her, and she chose "Your Will." She also chose "Shout to the Lord" and sang the echo part. That just goes to show you how unspiritual Leida was at the time. At least I think that's what it means.

Hello!

I don't think I went on that one, but I remember hearing about your valiant stand. That's why I said I liked singing the echo part so much.

WAIT A SECOND. This site is extremely entertaining and before I start with my "I rebuke thee speech", let me contribute to the madness with my own pet peeve: I hate old hymns that are the most depressing sounds on the planet. Well, I can't actually think of any right now because I've done everything in my power, in recent years, to keep hymns out of my song diet. But you all know what I'm talking about.

I agree with a lot of the things everyone is saying. But hey, we all have different opinions and I'm not sure it's worth the entertainment value to ruin someone's experience with a song. Yeah, some of the words make absolutely no sense when you really think of them, but if one person out there is truly moved and actually exalts God in the process of singing it, who are we to make fun of it. I stopped reading about 6 comments into this (after several laughs) because I'm afraid to come across a song that means a lot to me, being made fun of.

Yes, you're all very funny and obviously superstars now, but are we adding to the kingdom or taking away from it?

One of the most annoying worship songs I can think of is "Every Move I Make." Talk about a "hip thing." Plus, the words are fluff and dribble. There is no substance to them (along with many of the other songs mentioned here).

I like a lot of worship songs, but unlike Jason (01/09/06), I also have a balanced diet of hymns as well. A balanced diet is a healthy diet.

Yeah Aaron! I was beginning to think that I was the only old-school hymn lover around -- here's to a healthy diet :)

Peter -

Eric, James, Seebass, and I loved the Hough Stand at Malibu. At that point, we made t-shirts with your face that we wore everyday underneath our other shirts.

Hey, all.

Thank you very much for an entertaining and somewhat educational HOUR AND A HALF. Yes, I read through the whole thing. That's the kind of time I have on Saturday night when I'm not on the worship team tomorrow.

Here's the challenge I am faced with: Our Jr, High youth group consists of about twenty, at least fifteen of whom are not church kids -- they're just from the community and the nearby schools. Our youth pastor has a vision to teach them about worship even though the majority of them do not know Christ. One out of every four weekly youth nights has been designated worship night (the kids still come, incredibly). The worship team for these nights is composed of four students between grade eight and grade ten (or tenth grade, to translate to American), and myself (twentysomething). The worship leader is a tenth-grader who has a heart to worship and a rock band on the side. I am the "coach" (and percussionist). He picks the song and schedules the rehearsals, and my job is to make sure he's on the right track, holding to the vision of the youth pastor, adhering to a theme, critiquing songs, repeating songs enough that all these kids who have never heard them before (and don't even have a concept of worship) can learn them, but not so much that they get irritating, and cetera. Following this discussion has been a delightful romp and at various points I have agreed with some arguments on both sides of every issue. In this context, however, where the "congregation" cannot, in one sense, worship God at all, having no relationship or experience on which to base worship, I'd be interested to hear (read: read) comments.

The singing part of the worship time looks like this: we play and sing to the best of our ability; the youth pastor sings, as do any other sponsors present that night and the few kids from the church; and the other kids either stare at us, talk to each other and make jokes, and laugh at the lyrics. Of course, they don't know Jesus, so they're prone to laugh at (or at least have no understanding of) the lyrics of even songs you would call good ones.

I just couldn't resist commenting! I came across this site when I Googled "bad worship songs." Believe it or not, I was looking for bad worship songs for an assignment at the Christian university I attend. I have to rewrite a popular worship song, fixing the mixed metaphors, bad theology, or inspecific wording. I think its great that there's other Christians who are critically thinking about what they are singing. When I go to chapel and I see all my peers singing one or another popular worship song, while they're shaking with emotion and pushing their hands in the air like they somehow have to keep the roof from collapsing, I have to ask what exactly we're doing. I have nothing against expression of worship, but I believe that God is not impressed unless we are actually thinking about what we're singing and what it means to us. And I'm afraid that a lot of the time, all we're thinking about is how nice it is to be singing a song with all our friends, and how the band is moving us to the point where we have so much energy that we just have to start tapping our feet or raising our hands or clapping. Music is manipulative. It just is. And I hate to be manipulated. So sometimes when I go to church I just sit in the pew and try to think about the words and block the music out of my head.
That was kind of disjointed, but I just wanted to say that I really appreciated reading the discussion, and that it's definitely something for us all to continue thinking and praying about.
Grace

You guys are wonderful!! I'm 45, the head worship leader at my church, and I completely resonate with what most all of you are saying, especially the first several entries of this blog from a couple years ago (I ran out of time and didn't read most of the second half -- sorry). I've been guilty, in various seasons or spans of years, of most of the stupid things you all are complaining about. So, thank you for reminding me to have a brain. And thank you for validating why I'm currently on the track I'm on. I'm really thankful for my pastor, who has a great knack for avoiding extremes and stupidity. He encouraged me a couple years ago to try to create "new" music which is accessible to our community of yuppies, yet does not try to copy what other churches are doing -- to try and make something unique and new that would be truly a reflection of who we are, where we are in history and in our town. Sounds like exactly what most of you wish you had in your churches!! So for us -- which is different that what it would be for you if you were doing this -- the music has become kindof a mix of classical and bluegrass, with original chords and melodies put to classic hymn lyrics from the past three or four hundred years. I've avoided really whacky hymns with strange words none of us have ever heard of, or simply written new wording here and there to patch things up. And the result is very fresh and I feel honored to be a part of it. To see what I'm talking about you can hear some song snippets from our CD from www.crosssound.org/bainbridgehymns and I think you could probably even get one for free if you made a compelling case to our church secretary (who receives the email if you submit the order request). The normal CD cost is fifteen bucks... but ALL fifteen bucks go to help homeless people in central america. You can also listen to snippets of the music at that web address. I'm not trying to sell a CD (hopefully that's obvious), I'm just trying to point you to an example of what we've done in response to all the stupidity that you all have so excellently articulated. May we all be transformed by the renewing of our minds. Discussions like this help renew my mind. Thanks!! P.S. Just checked the music snippet link, and it's pretty mushy stuff compared to what you probably enjoy, but the point is to create stuff that is an expression of who YOU are, not what someone else is.

267 comments?

lord have mercy.

Funny how I don't know of any songs by any of you! I came by this site by accident and after reading the horrific contents (language included) I thought I would just leave it alone since I think most of you have such a high opinion of yourselves that no one else's comments will even make a dent. But after leaving for a few hours, I still find my blood boiling and in utter shock of some of the stuff I have read! How can some of you call yourselves worship leaders and then go on swearing and bashing actual Godly worship leaders like Tommy Walker, Kirk franklin and many more that God himself has actually anointed and blessed! Did you ever think about the fact that maybe, just maybe it is not all about YOU! That those songs that you are bashing, critisizing and making fun of are the exact songs that have brought many people to the actual throne of Christ. I am glad that I will not have to stand before Christ in your shoes and be accountable. But congrats, you have let the devil win this one! Shame on all of you that have slandered, or put down the work that God has done through someone else! So much for uplifting each other with brotherly love!

Thanks for weighing in, Trina. And thanks especially for being willing to judge people and question their motives. I know it wasn't easy for you to do since Jesus commands his followers not to do it, but you went the extra mile to do that for us. Thanks! I really enjoyed your subtle suggestion that people who posted in this discussion are going to hell. Thanks for uplifting us with brotherly love!

Saying she doesn't want to be in your shoes when you stand before Christ isn't implying you are going to Hell. Dan do you call yourself a Christian? A Christ Follower? And if so we are to be like Christ right? Can you see him criticizing people who, although in your opinion may not write great music, still did it for God?

And you say that She is judging you...well aren't you judging the works of other artists?

Granted I don't enjoy some of the music in our Church...I enjoy a more upbeat rock vs vineyard but I also believe that I don't come to worship looking for something for me...I come to give something to him.

Like I said...I don't think "the Big Guy" would look at this post and say well done my good and faithful servant...but that's just my impression on the post...and really my opinions don't matter...but His do.

Cheers

I have it on very good authority that Tommy Walker plays with Barbie dolls.

I'm just saying... Barbie dolls.

Let that one simmer for awhile.

Cannot believe this blog is till getting posts almost exactly two years after it's creation!I've had a good time reading all the bashes, crashes, and upsets that are represented. Obviously, worship is a huuuuge deal to many, if not all Christians. Churches have fallen because of the division caused by changing the style of music with the changing of the times. The Loyalists have left and the Moderns can't afford the pastoral staff, sad but true, the worshiper is searching for more meaning and a "real" encounter with God. Something akin to Moses' mountaintop experience. Problem is, worship has to do with the life lived during the week, and can't be suddenly "turned on." If during the week one is seeking God actively, than Sunday mornings (whether it's all hymns or all music published during this century) a person can conceivably enter into that mysterious place of God's presence. Of course, if the Holy Spirit is devoid from beforementioned pastoral staff, better find another church, no matter how much you like the music. Well, my testimony: My husband is a worship leader and I am his accompanist. I'm from a non-denom church and he was raised Wesleyan. There is a scripture that says something about wives submitting to their husbands. This had been a hard one for me to pracice when it came to worship. If he did a couple songs I couldn't relate to, I'd have quite the attitude (not exactly conducive to leading worship, or even being an effective Christian). What worked for me was to forget about the created words and focus on the Creator. Wouldn't you know it, I was able to worship. This attitude adjustment has helped me through so many "Lord, I Lift Your Name On High"s and "Shout to the Lord" (not a bad song, just overdone), oh and "As the Deer"s. Thankfully, when it comes to preferences, praise the Lord there is never a service where all the songs are on the top 5 worst list! That would require me to have the patience of Job and the heart of David, something I'm sure I'll only get with the assignment of my halo.

Is making critical comments about music that God's people sing to come into God's presence really necessary? The music has nothing to do with you and everything to do with God. It wasn't meant for you. I wonder what God thinks about the music - if it is sung with a pure heart, I am certain He loves and accepts it from His worshippers. Again, how is this constructive, friend? I think you should consider this closely.

I believe that this site is very effective and helpful for worship leaders. Many times we grow up singing these songs without thinking about the REAL meaning of the words. And if this site has generated this much hype, I'm sure there are people in the congregation that are thinking the same thing. We want to make a JOYFUL noise to God, not just any noise.

God doesn't listen to the words or the music. He listens to your HEART. Unfortunately, Humans can't listen to the heart so well. We mostly HEAR your voice and HEAR your music. So if we, as worship leaders, plan to reach the unchurched, they unsaved, etc..., as worship leaders, we must strive toward the best music/lyrics we can accomplish. Colosssians 3:23 "Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men"

hi, danny and sara!

i read the ENTIRE thing--i can't believe i read the ENTIRE thing. can you believe this post has gone on as long as it has? i'm amazed. can you believe peter busted me out when i wasn't even around to defend myself!?! grr...(wait: yes, i can). ; )

anyway, i hope you're well. emma gets cuter every day.
hugs,
leida

Leida (if that's even a real name...),

Maybe this topic isn't about YOU, did you ever think of that? All these people doing their darndest to please God by posting, and all you can think about is how it appeals to you.

Shame. Guilt. Hemorrhoids.

Oh, and sorry for ruining your reputation, here and elsewhere.

Where are the cutting-edge Polka-worship bands?
John

I was looking for scripture on dance and music as a way to show one's love to God and came across this blog. very interesting to me as a praise band member. We do all the songs listed and, all I can say is that our congregation appears to move into a very real time of worship and praise, even during the songs I don't care for...and isn't this the intention?

and the none of the songs talk about sex, drugs, killing etc so that alone elevates them a bit, right?

that being said, I have to admit I had a good chuckle!

I have attended a spirit-filled interdenominational church my entire life and have sang most, if not all, of these songs at some point or another. A few months back my church had a conference. When asked what they thought about it, someone remarked that it was just emotionalism. I personally did not think that the service was emotion-filled. Some people, including myself, were raising their hands, while others sat in their seats. We weren’t raising our hands because we felt obligated to do so, or because others were doing it. We were raising our hands because the presence of God was so strong in the room that we couldn’t help but not to. And, some weren’t receiving visions because they made them up or read into something that wasn’t there. They were receiving the visions because they were having a real encounter with God. That is what my church is all about- having a real encounter with a real God. My pastor often says that we are not having church just to have church; having church really doesn’t matter. We are having church to win the lost to Christ and see people being freed from their addictions. We are having church to prepare ourselves for the battlefield. We are having church to learn to be Jesus to a hurting world every day. And, we are having church to tear down the church walls and go into all the world with the gospel of Christ. I said all this to say the following: I think that you are focusing too much on what’s wrong with songs. Rather then spending your time on things that will really count for eternity, you are finding pleasure in nitpicking (to be concerned with or find fault with insignificant details) worship songs. As one of my pastors spoke about a couple of Sundays ago, I think you all need an update from God. Because when you do, “it will bring you to new levels of worship” (point 6 of the sermon; he referenced Psalms 144:9). If you are truly in love with God and worshiping Him, how well the song is written or sung won’t matter. Besides, where would worship be today if it weren’t for people such as Chris Tomlin, Matt Redman, Tim Hughes, David Crowder, and the like? I urge you to read the lyrics to Todd Agnew’s song “My Jesus” and get a new mission in life.

Being a worship leader, no doubt, one of the most challenging things to do is to find songs that are good. In the sense of being: biblically sound, good song form, honest, not cheap, not shallow, and yet singable corporately. There are many songs that are mentioned that are supposedly bad. I would like to know some of the songs that people love, that really help them to praise God. It is easy to give examples of songs that are not liked, but what about songs that you do like? And why do you like them? I have found that the most popular worship songs out there are not necessarily ones that are condusive to worship, many are simply "popular" and that is it! I love to praise God with worship songs that have substance and truth. I don't need to sing a sermon to praise and worship God, but there must be some biblical presence, there must be truth. What are the top 5 greatest Worship Songs? This list is much harder to do, anyone up for the challenge?

I'll take a stab at it! In fact, I'll make it a top fourteen. These songs are in NO particular order. Drum roll please.... :) How Great is Our God- Chris Tomlin Holy is the Lord- Chris Tomlin Wonderous Cross- Chris Tomlin We Fall Down- Chris Tomlin Forever- Chris Tomlin Shout to the Lord- Darlene Zschech(I know some of you are sighing right now. I'll admit that I'm tired of the song, too. But you have to look at the facts. It is one of the most played and sung songs.) Blessed Be Your Name- Matt and Beth Redman The Heart of Worship- Matt Redman (and another sigh from some of you people) Agnus Dei- Michael W. Smith Above All- Michael W. Smith I Could Sing of Your Love Forever- Martin Smit (Delirous?) I Will Worship- David Ruis (sung by Jeremy Camp and Big Daddy Weave/Barlow Girls) Here I am to Worship- Tim Hughes Come Now is the Time to Worship- Brian Doerkson So, here you have it. You may be wondering why there are five Chris Tomlin songs. I heard the other day that he owns 20% of all worship songs. That is why I included five of his songs. Right now he and John Rivers from K-LOVE radio are rewriting the top 20 worship songs and counting list. The list is not out yet.

One song: "Heaven is in my heart" by Graham Kendrick. Not only is heaven not in my heart (isn't that some kind of crazy buddhist belief?), but i resent having to sing the "Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh" bit before it. Once again, another example of an appaling lyricist trying to make up for his lack of talent/blessing with random monkey noises.

WOW - quite a discussion, I must admit. If I may, I'd like to make a few comments on some of the first posts. I do agree with most of you that there are some very BAD 'worship songs' out there. But do you know why they were written? Like 'Heart of Worship'. Some of you seem to freely bash it, holding back nothing in your critical or cynical comments, depends who hears them. Do you know why the lyrics were written orginially? I could be wrong, could be spreading a vicious rumor, but I have heard that the song originated because a church had lost touch with worship. During worship time people would talk, ignore the songs, ignore the worship leader - so the church decided to stop singing altogether. For 6 months there was no singing in the church - no music. The lyricist for the song wrote it after the 6 months, and it was the first song they sang when they 're-introduced' singing in the church. "I'm coming back to the heart of worship - where it's all about You, all about You Jesus." Now, I know it gets a little repetitive . . . who cares. Think about what it's saying! I can tell by some of the comments on this site that some of you have drifted away from what it means to really worship God. Quite frankly, it's not about YOU, it's not about what you like, it's about what is nice and pleasing to the Lord, is it not? And these songs that appeal to your more emotional side - are you that much of a MAN that you can't let your emotions free? Yes, some of the songs that repeat the same line over and over and over and over (you get the point) are annoying because they are so repetitive - but not because they appeal to your emotions. If we serve God the way He wants us to, we serve Him with EVERY PART OF US - even our emotions. If jealousy is the main reason for writing in this blog, because you as a lyricist have nothing on the K-LOVE top 10, I can understand your desire to rant about some songs that you think are theologically unsound, or just plain lame songs. You feel cheated because your 'perfect' worship songs have not reached the level of achievement that some of these other, less qualified songs have. Very understandable. As for the English scholars that think songs with poor english have no right to be sung in worship -I understand where you're coming from as well. We as American citizens have perfected english as a speaking language - how dare song writers demolish our ideals of perfect society. I mean honestly, is that really that big of a deal? Cause if so - maybe you should go reread some of your own comments. Might make you think twice about the 'judging' of others english abilities. Speck in his eye - branch in yours? I resent that I was unable to read all of the comments, there have been quite a few since sara started this site up. For the most part, I enjoyed reading how disagreeable Christians are these days. And if anyone dislikes how the politics and traditions of the church have kept younger generations from showing up at church, it's me - so I comepletely understand where most of you are coming from. 5 most horrid Christian songs out today - sounds like a very constructive site to set up. I have but one question - did you set it up so that worship leaders would honestly stop playing those songs? I wonder how many worship leaders have come across this site and been like "Holy freaking cow, am I seriously still playing these songs?! What am I thinking?! What was God thinking when he called me to this job?!? I mean what is wrong with me?!?!" Now - the most recent comments I like. What are the top 5 songs out right now? Instead of taking a LONG, over-drawn out debate over what people are doing wrong, lets focus on what is going well. What songs SHOULD I play to make sure the younger generations are enjoying the singing part of worship? Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it, right? I think those who dwell on the past are . . . doomed. So lets move past the mistakes of past song writers, or songs that have been played till they had no life left. Lets focus on what we should be doing - what can we do now to better promote the excitement of worshipping the only wonderful, loving, merciful Christ? The most recent anonymous mentioned Chris Tomlin - good man. I can't say that I have delved too deeply into how biblically correct his songs are - but they are great worship songs in my book. David Crowder is doing some amazing things I think. Even Steve Fee and Todd Fields, in conjuction with Louie Giglio have put out some amazing worship songs. Ones that even appeal to the more emotional side of a person - but none-the-less, ones that focus on the worshipping of Jesus Christ. Being someone who has refused to play certain songs in worship services because I down right detested them, I understand why this blog started, and why so many people have come here desiring to have their voice heard. But as a follower of Christ, I choose to push ahead and make disciples, not to allow my criticism be my claim to fame. So to you lyrcists, write your lyrics, publish your words of adoration. And to you cynics, be cynical of Satan. Make your point known - there are bad worship songs - list them - recommend people to not sings them - and then move on with life. I don't understand why so many of you have spent SO much time making sure people understand why you hate said songs. Move on with life - point out what people are doing right - maybe more people will pick up on what the younger generations desire. I long for the day when blogs like this aren't necessary - i fear it is a long way off. There have been enough people commenting on this site that if each one of you would go tell one worship leader what you WANT to hear (not what you dislike, but what you like) you could reach out to so many youth and young adults - and yes, even older adults who are open to change. What are you going to do with your life today?

You may be wondering why there are five Chris Tomlin songs. I heard the other day that he owns 20% of all worship songs.

Ummm...no he does not. Do you realize how songs that would be? There is no possible way that Chris Tomlin "owns" 20% of all worship songs.

A comment was made by the originator of this blog "I am assuming (at the risk of being wrong, of course) that the others who have made similar comments are also of this personality type that finds it humorous and cathartic to rant about something and then let it go." Unfortunately, I believe it can snowball into criticism of those who write music for publication. After all, these are artists and most (if not all) of these praise songs were written for commercial interests because that is the vehicle for wide publication and support of the artist.

While I agree that this is meant to be cathartic, it also may have degenerated into a life of its own. We are to build up the church. I can't imagine this blog doing that.

I don't believe anyone understands true worship. I think we do the best we can. I also believe that even though some of these songs have been worn out in church services, they still have potential for reaching other people for Christ. I give Saddleback and "Purpose Driven" as an example. The church is in great need to reach people of this generation. Music that people enjoy can do that where no amount of preaching can.

I think it is great that this blog is the only one out there promoting this kind of criticism.

I think it's a shame that this is the only blog out there promoting this kind of cynicism. If we aren't cynical we'll simply end up kidding ourselves that our worship is amazing. I'm not saying God rejects substandard or less than wholehearted worship (although there are plenty of examples in the OT of God rejecting worship), nor am I saying that Christian songwriters and worship leaders are deliberately writing poor quality songs or songs which fail to glorify God. What I am saying is that Christian songwriters have a responsibility to avoid writing songs which actively hinder us in worship. As such, we have a responsibility to ensure that they don't churn out drivel. Would you put up with your Pastor exclaiming "na na na" or "oh oh oh" in a time of prayer? Would you be prepared to sit through a substandard sermon because it rhymed or because you adored the man delivering it, or because his "heart is in the right place"?... Me neither.

As a songwriter and worship pastor, I am sure that many other writers are penning excellent worship songs. They just never get heard outside that writer's local church because the music industry isn't interested. Anyone who thinks that the worship genre is any less about money than any other genre is kidding themselves.

"We stand before You, broken and weak.
We come with nothing to lay at Your feet.
The cross where your righteousness and mercy meet
Offers hope, offers peace.

Healing compassion gives sight to the blind.
Reaches the dying and brings them to life.
Leaving the darkness for Your perfect light,
Lord, we come. Lord, we come.

Hallelujah! This sacrifice,
The blood of Christ, covers me.
Hallelujah! Love paid the price,
Hallelujah! I am free, I am free."

Copyright 2006 trentsmithmusic
all rights reserved

I am grateful that God allows me to write songs that my local church can embrace and call their own--I hope someday others can enjoy them...that part is up to God!

I cannot believe how this thread continues to get comments. That is great. Sara - good work!! :)

If it means anything to anyone, the last time I participated in a music team at church we played Prince, U2, and Ben Lee songs. :)

I like to read things that make me think, and this site has done just that. I am the Director of Young Adult Ministry at my church in North Dakota, and we are starting a young adult service this fall. We have over 20,000 college students in our community, and the service is to be an outreach to unchurched and those who have left the church. As we've been planning the essentials of worship, music keeps resurfacing at the top of the list. Realistically, the lyrics and theology of the songs aren't that important. Authenticity in the presentation is. That means that the music must be "performed" well. The singers must be on key, and the band has to sound good. Many young people have no interest in the church because they can't relate to the music or how it is led. Therefore, we must bring them into the church with good music. Romans 12:1 says "Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God — this is your spiritual act of worship." Young people won't offer their bodies as living sacrifices if they don't understand the sacrifice that Christ first made for us. They won't understand Christ's sacrifice if they don't know who He is and how He loves us. They won't know who He is and how He loves us if they're not first shown that by others. And what better way to experience the greatness and goodness of God's love than joining others in praise and worship of Him in some sort of gathering. That's our job as worship leaders. We are given the great responsibility of creating a place where believers can gather together to praise God and learn about His infinite love. If good music is the way to get them in the door, no matter how materialistic it may sound, then we need to offer good music. You are right that there are a lot of songs that are overdone, and even more that really don't have much Biblical truth. But when people open their mouths, open their hearts and offer their lives to Christ, God is glorified. I like to think, and this site has let me do a lot of thinking. I am reenergized and ready to lead worship with all that God has given me.

p.s. Keep on changing lives with CCF. CCF has been the rock that has kept my girlfriend solid in her faith for the last three years, and I am grateful for that. I've been to one worship service there (Feb. 5 2006) and the Spirit was present. Praise God for that wonderful ministry!

Are there any songs that you all DO LIKE? If so, why do you like them? I love looking at what we do as much as the next leader, but without a standard of valuable songs vs. our own ignorant opinions, this thread can't go anywhere but down from here... I have enjoyed reading Paul Baloche's latest book on songwriting for worship (see http://www.worshipmusic.com/1933150033.html).

Good call. Hundreds of postings on bad songs with very little suggestions on what are good ones.

I once heard Matt Redman speak. He said he wrote that song specific to address an issue and experience his church was dealing with at the time.
The fact that others have used it as a "worship" song isn't his issue. Plus, he and Tim H have written the most singable and valuable songs of the last ten years...not discounting Delirious who broke through in the early 90's with real, actual, good songs of worship that didn't sound like Maranatha drivel.

Ironically I found this site as I was googling for the song "Days of Elijah" -I love this song and looked forward to hearing it on a TV show before going to work - That was in Jamaica - now I am in Trinidad and they don't have the same show..Bummer. I must confess that I had a good laugh at the various comments although I was somewhat shocked at some of the language. I also have to say that I know absolutely none of the songs except the one I mentioned and Amazing Grace. We still sing very traditional songs and then to we have several local hymns which I love because of the joy and rhythm in them although I have noticed that more and more I am hearing songs that are totally foreign to me. I do miss some of my teenage-days oldies but I understand that churches are trying to get the interest of the "young" people so they use their music. What we actually do over here is have different types of services - Folk Mass on Sat for the younger crowd. Then two sessions on Sunday etc. I actually cant think of songs that I really dislike - what drives me around the bend is the style of singing sometimes. As you will realize I am somewhat old-fashioned so I don't understand why there is this need to modernize old songs. I always think - Hey write your own song to mess up.
Well spoke longer than expected - just very happy now... and yes absolutely amazing that after two years people are still commenting - isn't the Internet amazing!!!

Hello! Wow, talk about the comments thread that never ends.

I wholeheartedly agree with the #1 song on the original list being where it is. There is a whole category of songs, of which "Your Love is Extravagant" is the most egregious example I know, where the lyricists have taken their imagery from the Song of Solomon and addressed it to Christ. I call these songs "homoerotic Jesus fantasy" songs, because no heterosexual male should be comfortable singing them. I have no desire to smell his "intoxicating fragrance," thankyouverymuch.

Surfed across this page using "worship cliches" to see if I got them all for "The (Maybe Slightly Cliched) Worship Song".

Great to see so many against the "valley of the shadow of the shallow" / "Jesus is my boyfriend" songs. The rotten things scamper and spread like cockroaches, but unfortunately unlike cockroaches they have fans. Oh well, if enough people jump on the songs at once we might be able to get rid of them...sorry fans, but you really can get better.

Some of my pet dislikes for the list (added to those above already mentioned ;)):

The Greatest Thing (in all my life is knowing...someone or other)
There Is None Like You (song possibly about a philanthropist pediatrician?)
I Feel Like I'm Falling
Madly (managed to make my list without even hearing it. Read about it on a message board a few weeks ago, that was enough.)

And just for those who suggested to add 5 good ones here is a set of Geoff Bullock's:
Holy One Of God
This Kingdom
Holy
Have Faith In God
Blessing Honour


We don't need every song to be a 39 verse (of at least 8 lines each) exposition on 5 attributes of God and 3 main doctrines...(but wouldn't that be cool? ;))...but I think we should be doing a lot better than the level of some current songs.

Sorry, I did not read all of the posts- but I did read several days worth. There's lots of good stuff & lots of garbage. Music is, to some extent, subjective. I happen to like a lot of the songs mentioned. They have been a vehicle for honest and sincere worship in my life. If the songs aren't up to your standards, for those of you who write, strive to write something better.

wow. if there is any site where Christians are giving God a black eye, this is it. This is in no way edifying the name of Jesus. how can you possibly believe that this is in any way Christlike? Just because you have some ignorant opinion on a song that God has given an individual, where does Gods word say that tearing down your brothers and sister is permitted. HELLO it doesn't say that. You folks should really examine your hearts. Don't get mad at me, if you don't agreet with me, get mad at God, cause he is the one you have the problems with. You wil l answere for what you are doing. If a lost person stumbles upon this sight, and i'm sure it happens, I wonder what they think about it.
they probably think that you are a fake, you need to read the book of James where it says your toungue is a little member and boast great things, that is what you are doing. YOu folks need to go to the word of God and reconsider what you are doing. I truly believe you are on dangerouse ground

The problem is we have worship leaders who do not know what worship is. Worship is NOT thanking God, or asking Him for something. (There are times and places for that, but it isn't worship.)

Worship IS recognizing who HE is and acknowledging those things.

That is worship. Everthing else becomes fluff, or about US... ugh. If our intention in worship is to glorify God and please Him... then the songs we choose to sing should reflect that.

Worship is easily confused with begging God for stuff or singing about ourselves or singing ABOUT God instead of TO Him.

If a lost person stumbles upon this sight, and i'm sure it happens, I wonder what they think about it.

Nah...they will probably think, "Wow...there are actually Christians who agree with me about these terrible songs. Maybe Christians are not so bad after all!"

Then they will see your comment, and think, "Yup...I guess they still are judgmental."

i think some of you people need to stop being so critical...we worship god for god not for you and your opinion...so back off

ok. im confused. why do you people waste your time thrashing songs? that people poured sweat and tears into...its completely rediculous...infact it makes me sick. if you dont like song, thats your opinion...do us a favor and keep it to yourself. half of you dont like these worship songs because you hear them so often, and i bet you dont even think about the words. your to busy shuffling your feet,dady dreaming, and saying "i hate this song" when your suppose to be engaged in worship. you hear john 3:16 all the time, but i bet you wont say you hate it...think about it. your so focused on yourself, and what you want to hear...that you dont even think about the hours the worship team put into the songs...so examine your hearts before you type another message. ask yourself. is what im about to say bringing honor to whom honor is due? is what im about to say going to glorify god? think about!

i agree...keep it to yourself.
why "as christian" cant we be positive?
hello...this is a christian site.
lets talk about the great things of god, and how we praise him through song.

Hey here's a thought for all the critics, How about you post links to the the great songs that you have written? What's that? Oh, you haven't written any songs? why? Cus you're no talent religious biggots who are a complete waste of space.

cheers

Dear Religion Hater,

I just couldn't let your comment linger as the last one on this thread. You hate religion? Fine. So do I. There is a lot about religion to hate. I just want you to know that God (who desires a relationship with us, not a religion) loves you very much. He loves everybody, even non-religious "biggots" who can't spell.

There really is a biblical precedent for unbridled ranting. Just read some of the Psalms David wrote when he was in distress.

I started to read this posting with enjoyment and empathy. For better or worse, I have been a participant and leader of many of the "bad" worship experiences that people have posted here. Laughing at myself was healthy and educational. I'm trying to keep what we do as leaders of worship pure. Yet I was left feeling unsatisifed with the experience of reading through the entire post because I think it deteriorated into a rant, and a cynical rant at that. To all who were offended: I have my own personal list of most disliked worship songs as well. Does that make me a bad person? Our church is 3,000 members and growing. I lead worship 5 times every weekend. I have a responsiblity to glorify God and serve the congregation. Does that mean I cannot dislike a song or two? I have actually changed lyrics in songs that I felt were not theologically correct in order to not toss out the baby with the bathwater. I.e. a small change to 2 words saved a song. Does that make me judgemental? Here is another example: I never sung the song "Meet With Me" in corporate worship because I think the sentiment is selfishly focused. To all who "hate" the above posted tunes: I actually have picked the song "Trading My Sorrows" to sing in church this weekend because I felt led by the Holy Spirit to include it. Is it my favorite song? No. But will it bless the congregation and God this weekend? I pray it will. I believe the Lord laid it no my heart to include. Bottom line: Here's why I felt motivated to post - I loved the original postings and the humor and intelligent perspective was fanastic and enlightening. The compalining and moaning was a bit much. That said, there is flat out not enough discussion on this topic. The responsiblity is too great to arbitrarily pick songs because it makes someone tap their foot or shed a tear. We must be Spirit-led in what we do in glorifying God and serving the assembly. I pray that God uses discussions like these to educate and help His body focus more clearly on why we do what we do in sung worship.

music is a gift from God. praise songs are gifts to God, while others are meant to bring people to know God. *forget what you read here young man, take your songs into the world and bring others to Jesus*

Well, google 'cheesy worship songs' and you are number 1! Congratulations!

My wife and I regularly have to keep from laughing duing worship at our church. Many of the songs we sing are just fine, but some, if you start to dig into the lyrics a little bit, they are just unbelievably shallow and others are downright funny.

In fact, just yesterday, we sang a song that opens up with:

I roll out the carpet
of my repentence
I roll out the carpet
Red with forgiveness

Its a local song, so most of yo