I'd throw Truman in the top 10, if not top 5. Though people thought he stunk when he was in office, looking back, a lot of smart people think he was ahead of his time. Plus, he's from Missouri.

Gotta agree with Mike, danny. Ya gotta put Truman in there...at least ahead of John F. Kennedy...who historians generally rank as the most overrated President. However, as discussed over at Voter Vault, I don't necessary believe that historians are correct in their rankings. JFK, we needed more time with him, but he was pretty good.

I would put Washington ahead of Lincoln though.

Why Washington at number 1? First doesn't always mean best. And if he does get the number one spot, shouldn't some of the credit go to guys like Jefferson and Franklin?

Well put, Danny. It reminds me of the way Kurt Vonnegut puts it in Timequake:

In chapter 2 of this wonderful book of mine, I mention a commemoration in the chapel of the University of Chicago of the fiftieth anniversary of the atom-bombing of Hiroshima. I said at the time that I had to respect the opinion of my friend William Styron that the Hiroshima bomb saved his life. Styron was then a United States Marine, training for an invasion of the Japanese Home islands, when that bomb was dropped.

I had to add, though, that I knew a single word that proved our democratic government was capable of committing obscene, gleefully rabid and racist, yahooistic murder of unarmed men, women, and children, murders wholly devoid of military common sense. I said the word. It was a foreign word. That word was Nagasaki.

Washington at number one, because without him, no country would exist for Lincoln to save. Plus, Washington could have screwed up our country by becoming king (which they would have let him do). Imagine having Dubya, or any past President for that matter, as a king, rather than President....yikes! We need checks and balances, and we can thank Washington for setting a precedence of maintaining them.

As for Franklin and Jefferson, they did well, but I'm referring to 1789-1797, GW's actual presidency, after all it's a question of the best President. Franklin was basically dead by this point, and Jefferson was too busy arguing with Hamilton.

As for Truman, danny, if you take him out of the top 5 because of the atomic bombs, you have to take out FDR from the top 5 too, due to the completely unnecessary firebombing of Dresden. This bombing killed anywhere from 30,000 to 150,000, mostly civilians. Fat Boy killed 80,000 Japanese.

My point is, the situation/scenario is the same, just with different countries, and the lack of an actual atomic bomb. Germany was not going to win this war...that was clear. FDR did not have to order the Air Force and RAF to bomb it.

Throw in Japanese internment camps, and you gonna take FDR out of the top five if you take Truman out, especially if you're basing it on the negative effects on civilians, whether it be death, injury, or displacement.

Lots of overrated presidents in your top 5. I'm not saying they're bad, but not top 5.

Jefferson as president: if you look beyond the Louisiana Purchase he made some dumb decisions. And owned slaves until the day he died.

Kennedy: If he wasn't handsome, had a hot wife, and was murdered, he wouldn't be held in such reverence. What his father did to get him elected is simply mind-bending. His great achievement: Civil Rights.
Space program? In his private tapes he said the space program was just a gimmick.
Cuban Missile Crisis? A great act of dipolomacy necessary because he screwed up with the Bag of Pigs.

FDR: Stepped on the Constitution. He did NOT solve the Depression, WW2 did that. He LIED to the American people about entering the war.

Other overrated:
Woodrow Wilson: Prohibition? The WORST Amendment in US history. Racist.

THE BEST
Washington and Lincoln


Underrated:
James K Polk
James Monroe

American casualties alone were projected at 500,000 and the Japanese didn't surrender after we dropped the first bomb.

who cares?

You may want to reconsider your negative comments about Kennedy and Vietnam. Please consider that it was KENNEDY who order Robert McNamara to REMOVE our troops from Vietnam after the 1964 election. McNamara's comments are in the Erol Morris documentary,"The Fog of War". Also Kennedy want to disband the CIA which has put so many dictators in power. The Shah of Iran, Saddam Hussein, Marcos, Allede and dozens of others. Imagine how much peace we might have without them. Some speculate that was the reason for the assassination and people close to Johnson who was desperate to become president have confirmed that. Howard Hunt and Madeilene Brown are a couple. Also recall that it was not Johnson's money who paid for the welfare programs or civil rights programs that he supported. He privately made comments opposing both. Also the war in Vietnam officially began under Johnson after the Tonkin Gulf resolution in 1964.

Those that fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it.

please kennedy was a decent president at best he happened to be shot that is why he is revered and becasue his mistress was marylon monroe teddy rosevelt should def be top five he carved the way into the progressive era and environmentalism as well as making our nation a world power and actually causualties for the invasion of Japan were estimated at around a million

Any mention of a top five list without Teddy Roosevelt is incomplete. Kennedy, while I really like him, doesn't belong in the top five. Polk deserves a place there.

Please, please, please put Bush on the worst list asap... Nothing good is going to turn around in Iraq, as you commented on. He just gets less intelligent on a daily basis.

You must be kidding! George W. has to be THE WORST! He's screwed up everything. I'm conservative and at least I have the nerve to admit I made a mistake!

Kennedy certainly doesn't belong in the top 5. Has everyone forgotten how badly he managed the Cuban missle crisis, not to mention he was cheating on his wife. Regan, however does belong in the top 5 considering he helped end the cold war with Russia, helped tear down the wall in Berlin and survived an assignation attempt.

Jimmy Carter should be on the bottom, for as I see him as most do nothing pres

Bill Clinton is one of the best ..he done great thing for the buget and all..

Geo. W bush is the sorriest this countrey has ever had...

When was Franklin ever president?

Truman was faced with more important decisions than any other [president. He was honest and free of scandal.
JFK" enough already! He was immature and very overrated. He wasted his chance. Fine speaker. But could not hold his own with foreign leaders. Acted like a fool regarding Bay of Pigs. I would put him closer to the bottom of the list. He probably got laid more than any other president. Nixon always got the worst treatment by the press, the press covered for JFK. JFK affiliations with mafia characters would be enough to sink JFK. But the press is enamored with his history. What a shame.

Lincoln and Washington HANDS DOWN as the two best... Worst, you gotta put Jimmy Carter in there for tearing apart our military and national defense, Bill Clinton has the morals of a rabbit, should have been indicted for all the people that ended up dead surrounding Whitewater, Kennedy wasn't a good president.... his daddy bought him that election, and he was almost as immoral as Clinton.

Ronald Reagan is the most overrated president in US History. He should be somewhere between 25th and 30th best.


Top 5 are

Lincoln
FDR
Washington
Jefferson
T. Roosevelt

Worst - George W. Bush
runners up for worst: Harding
Buchanan
Grant
Pierce

I concur completely that "JFK" was definitely overrated. If one would actually access his presidency history accurately, and objectively; one should conclude with an intelligent outcome that Kennedy was inexperience, and lacked the maturity, and moral compass to lead this nation in times of "grave crisis".Now, say what you made think of "William Jefferson Clinton" as a moral leader, but I've never heard any mentioning of questioning regarding his competence, or lack of basic intelligence to carry out his duties daily efficiently and effectively. And last but not least, "George W. Bush", is a "complete moron". Enough said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh by the way, did I mention, that I'm conservative political junkie, and always vote independently.

The best about all of the comments is that your voices are heard because of the Constitution of this great United Sates to have the freedom to do so. That would put the first three Presidents in my top five- Washington, Adams & Jefferson. FDR for taking a country that was in turmoil and pulling it out of the misery that it was in. The fifth would have to be Lincoln.
The worst would be a long list. Pierce, Hoover & A. Johnson I agree on. Bill Clinton would have to be there just for the impeachment alone. I would also consider Carter in the bottom 5 for just being a political puppet during his presidency.

William Clinton, didn't have the sense to come in out of the rain. He failed to go after OBL not once, but twice. He never let his duties get in way way of his womanizing. He led us into to a recession and he crafted Open Borders and damaged American Business with NAFTA! How quickly you all forget; and let us not forget that he got us involved in KOSOVA! He put American Forces under Foreign Command; that is a Gigantic Mistake and bordered on Treason. John F Kennedy was a total waste! Another womanizer, screwed up Bay of Pigs and got us into Viet Nam via Robert McNamara! Trust me, I was there!
Top of List Reagan and Truman followed closely by Madison, Washington and Lincoln and Jackson (Strong Central Bank). Biggest wastes as President were Eisenhower and Carter! Jimmy Carter may have been the most ignorant and useless President of ANY Country in the History of the World!

Note to ghbraves and all people like ghbraves! You are a dangerous fool. Your kind spouts data as if it were a fact and you fail to check your data. Truth be known, The Bombing of DRESDEN was ordered by Winston Churchill and NOT FDR, and for those that are unaware, the bombing of Dresden happened 2 months after FDR Died ( Fed 13-15 1945) and Truman took over Presidency in Jan! Secondly, stats NOW show that approx 24,000 were killed. In addition there was an investigation into the bombing after the war and it was determined that it was mecessary. Even German Propaganda of 1938 showed approximately 1500 factories in Dresden involved in production of War materials. Minor points ghbraves, but in future, check your facts ( for instance the fact the FDR was Dead when bombing happened and planning was done by Churchill after FDR's death). People like that are a danger and a serious threat to freedom. GHBRAVES and people like gh spout lies and many people don't know enough to check facts and find out that they are lies! Just like another post that said that Japan offerred to surrender twice and was turned down by HST. Author of that fiction turned out to be a member of the Communist Party of America! People need to check facts. Just because someone repeats a previous lie and suggests that it comes from an authoritive source, does not make it fact!

Worst president of all time was bill clinton. A liar. most of them are anyways but to get caught. and we do not need a leader in office that our children will look up to and think that its okay to cheat on your spouse and disgrace the office that he held.And if lincoln was such a great president why didn't he send the slaves back to africa after he freed them. Here's probably a reason why because they were slaves in their own country before they were sold into slavery here. so if the african nation as a whole in this country wants to blame anyone for slavery they need to start with their own motherland. apparently they don't teach this in history anymore. i never owned slaves and never would so quit holding people responsible for shit that happened over 2 hundred yrs ago. i was not alive then and neither was most of the people living today.

C'mon 'MICHAEL' you are obviously an educated man.. most educated men know that it is those who spue out threats that are the danger to our freedoms!! that is what freedom is to say whatever the heck you want, right or wrong..with the freedom to also chose whether or not you wanna say 'moral' or 'immoral unethical' comments..

even tho you are dead on with your facts. and i totally agree ppl should know what they are talking about before blabbing out garbage... but we all leave out this and that to bolster our claims and comments.. even you did..

ever hear of the term "bombenholocaust"?? well, it means "holocaust by bomb" this just goes to show that many still think that the fire bombings of Dresden and other German cities and other strategic bombings was not held lightly and moreover as a cowardly act.. Your number of 24k is the low end.. it goes up to 50k or maybe more. altho probly justified, but in hindsight, you could see it was not needed.. even tho the many ppl say that the war was close to over, this got construed b/c of the Battle of the Bulge was so devastating to both sides... nonetheless bombing raids were amped up and continued.. military intelligence found under the marshall inquiry deemed it necessary as a military strategic location for the Germans.. again, hindsight, it wasn't that necessary. it did have the few remaining railroads and communications but even that wouldn't have saved the nazis.. so again, at the time they thought it was needed.. but you have the other side that sees Dresden as this magical historic city.. which it is and was.. Dresden is like Florence or Rome or Paris.. all Europeans have a deep love for Dresden..
even British philosophers, historians and International Lawyers today deem it was a War Crime! It is hard for many who see an investigation by the 'allies' to investigate themselves for war crimes such as Dresden and find themselves innocent and that acts such as Dresden were necessary a little hard to accept.

In North Korea ppl go to prison if they say something that is wrong about the North Korean Government.. So GHBraves is not the danger to freedom.. it is THREAT mongers that are the danger.. the ppl who shut others down that are the danger.. for all we know.. Mr. GhBraves could very well have sincerely thought he was telling the truth..
just b/c ppl on both sides have diffeerent views, different opinions and even diffferent facts or one has the right fact and the other is wrong or has exxagerated them... it doesn't mean they are a danger!

even in your statement MICHAEL... you left out pertinent info to bolster your comment.. it wasn't a dead on 24,000. thats the low end of the number and goes up to 50,000 or maybe more.. also, it was the "allies" who deemed dresden was necessary after the investigation.. the ALLIES investigated themsevles and said that they did NOT committ war crimes.. even tho there probly were military factories and it was probly justified, the fact is thousands died..

BTW.. if it even matters after i just wrote that very long comment...

for my take on best presidents.. I mostly agree with what everyone is saying.. which seems to be the concsensus.. I do think Kennedy should be up there.. yes overrated, but what he did during the ColdWar was a feat not many leaders would of handled. I think his presidency is not only defined by the Apollo program but by those "thirteen days" in October..

As for Reagan, I would have to Agree w/ some of the comments, again, I think he was overrated too. yes, he did a great job helping the ColdWar come to an end.. but there were alot of leaders worldwide and before him that helped make it happen.. He was all foreign policy and no domestic.. Also the debacle of the Iran-Contra affair.. I could be wrong.. but wasn't he for the sale of weapons to the Contras to help covert operations such as in Iran?? Or was it vice-versa? I don't know. but what I do know.. I remember alot of ppl disliking him during the 80s. In fact, that is all I remember about him b/c of the recession..

I'll give some Points for Jimmy Carter - It was him that got out the hostages, NOT Reagan! R. Reagan got the credit b/c they were let out the first day of his first term to embarras Carter.. But he worked day and night for months trying to get him out.. And for his successful Camp David Peace Accord b/w Egypt and Israel which still lasts today..

But, being that I wasn't yet alive during his Presidency, what was it that made him so bad?? I am very curious. All I ever hear of how bad he was.. He is by far the most successful and most popular former President of his "post-presidency". His human and politcal rights agenda is bar none.. I am sure it has helped his legacy. Again, why do so many ppl dislike him? I in fact find him to be quite honest and of moral, sound judgement. Not many Presidents tell the truth like he does...(or am i wrong?)

I remember 12 presidents and I rate them:
Best- F D Roosevelt
IKE
Bill C
J Ford
JFK

Worst - George W Bush
L B Johnson
R M Nixon
R Reagan
H W Bush

My mother used to say, "There is some good in even the worst of people just as there is a little bad in the best of everyone". I firmly believe that!!
Therefore I did not rate the presidents so much on their character as what they were able to accomplish working with the congress and situations in the world at that time.

Dan Baumgartner, you are the worst liberal ever... FDR I agree with, and Ford; LBJ and Nixon are in my bottom five, but both Bushes in the bottom? no. Reagan should be at the top. Like this: Best: Lincoln Washington FDR Reagan Ford Worst: LBJ Nixon Clinton Van Buren - he did nothing Buchanan that is how it should go, for me at least...

Best: TR, Lincoln, Jefferson, Reagan , Kennedy , Ford.
Worst: Harding, L Johnson, Jackson, Jimmy Carter, Taft, Hoover, Wilson, FDR, Truman.

John Kennedy did not get us in Vietnam, read your history man!

Regarding Michael [Visitor], who wrote comments about me on 02/18/08 @ 20:48

After reading your very critical post, I have deducted that you are:

1. Not very knowledgeable of history
2. Incapable of typing in "FDR" to Google.
3. A hypocrite
4. Very dangerous, as YOU do not check your facts.
5. Of questionable intelligence

As such, I'll leave it to you to figure out why these five items are utterly true.

Also, a couple of random comments.
Although JFK had nearly 16,000 "advisors" in Vietnam by Nov. 1963, you gotta throw some blame on Eisenhower. He really got the ball rolling...at least ideologically, to get us in the Vietnam "interventionist" mentality.

Furthermore, while I like Reagan, I can't give him full credit for ending the Cold War. In one of his few brilliant moments, Jimmy Carter's authorization of the grain embargo against the USSR was pretty huge, in furthering economic troubles over there.