What you point out about Noah is kinda like the story of David. David - whom committed adultery with a woman after David himself sent the woman’s husband out to war for the very purpose of killing him - this same David is who God said was after His own heart and God chose as King.

Makes me feel kinda good about myself.

And then there is Jacob - a heel grabber. A down right rotten scoundrel. Stole his brothers birthright, lied to His blind Father - and ran away from home, yet God was actually the one that picked Jacob for that very birthright - the one that had this already planned.

There are a couple more…

Again - forget the history lesson. Reread the story here.

Why do unbelievers receive miracles? Why do those that stray/make really bad choises always seem to be the ones that eventually claim God intervened? Why do the ones that made good choices for most of their lives and who had strong faith have to be the ones who get the short end of the stick?

For most of my life I was a devout Christian- studying the Bible, doign as it told, reaching out to others in the name of Christ, and being ostricized because of my beliefs (all the while taking some encouragement in thinking that my efforts weren’t for nothing.) It wasn’t when these efforts didn’t seem to pan out that my beliefs changed. I still thought that God somehow had a greater purpose in everything. It was when I realized that no matter how faithful I was, no matter how much I prayed God didn’t care to respond in any way that I could even remotely distinguish was him. The Bible says that God’s children will be able to recognize when He speaks to them; that we will know when the Holy Spirit works. I even reached a point where I didn’t care if there was an act that was ” miraculous,” I just wanted something to be sure it was him and not just my own mind hoping that a Creator existed, grasping for instances that could be considered God making himself known.

If God can speak to so many other people (including non-believers,) if he can speak to so many people from Bible times but cannot speak to me, then I don’t think I want to serve that God. If he can speak and place within people (some of whom don’t even ask for or want it) a deep peace and knowledge of himself but not me, then what does that say? Why do I want anything to do with such a God?

At one point I believed that even though it seemed I was on a path that was leading me further from God, somehow God would show me meaning and lead me back to him. While I struggled with what was written in the Bible, I still had a core faith that God wanted me, saved me, and would somehow bring me to a deeper knowledge of him than when I first began my “journey.” To me this was an even deeper faith than those who suppodely hear or see God, those who supposedly have seen miracles because I hadn’t had any of those things and yet I still had faith. But in the end there still seems to be nothing more than this meager life. Nothing more than the lessons I learn based on my experiences and capabilities within THIS LIFE (none of which point to a higher being.) Somehow I still believe there is something that created us, or at least something more than just us. But I don’t think that being is in any way like the God of the Bible.

The God in the Bible saved one man and his family in the midst of a sin ridden town. All he asked was that they not turn around lest they be turned into a pillar of salt. These times are no different than those in Sodom and Gommorah, yet somehow I’m to believe that God chooses not to reveal himself to his believers in this time? The Bible states that God said he will not reveal himself to us in signs or miracles. Apparently he gave up on us or decided we were too wicked. I don’t know. But if this is the case, then why are any of you claiming to hear him, or see miracles? And why would I want to serve a God who helped out so many wicked people back in the day but won’t do the same for me now? Supposedly Noah was such a good dude, but the Old Testament says that he got drunk in his tent. He then fell asleep naked and one of his sons saw him naked, called in his other brothers, and they laughed at him. Noah then killed the son who made fun of him. Tell me please why God sat by and let Noah kill his son, especially when this was supposedly the time when God intervened the most? God’s law was that no man be drunk. It was Noah’s fault that he was drunk and naked. He disobeyed the Law and should have reaped the consequences. He not only didn’t accept his consequences, he commited a sin against the 10 commandments, which didn’t even fit the act of his son laughing at him. That would be like me gouging out someones eyes because they looked at me wrong for wearing an ugly outfit. What ever happened to turn the other cheak? The Bible is frought with contradictory statements. I don’t care if anyone says God knows best and can do whatever he wants. I thought God was supposed to be fair and seek justice? Well the knowledge of fair and justice he’s placed inside of me doesn’t fit what is written about him in the Bible.

I think alot of times religion gets mixed up with faith. although they can interplay, they are at their roots two seperate thingys.

I define religion as a list of do’s and dont’s, or put simply a LAW. Now, everyone knows the christian religion concept of “your a naughty boy” if you break the do’s and dont’s. Well - thats kinda right, kinda… but breaking the law doesnt make you naughty, it only defines or makes known the naughtiness already in you ( that God put there by the way ) I am a very naughty boy… dont tell santa.
The law - or religion - was not made merely to DEFINE the lawbreaker though, it was also made to RESTRAIN the lawbreaker, simply because it gives the things to do or not to do - and then gives negative consequences for the action.
So - the naughty little boy in us all - will maybe think twice before stealing an ox if he knows that he will have to repay 2 oxes in its place. Or the neighbor waiting for the husband next door to leave so he can borrow some ” sugar ” from his wife might have second thoughts after considering his ” consequence “… ( the law of moses never once instituted torture by fire or any other torture as a consequence - death was the biggest punishment )

These are very practical civil and moral laws… and they are religion. Surely their is a benefit in restraining someone from murder, thief, or even lying? well there is, but there is also a big negative… you can not restrain someone for ever and soon or later they trespass because it was there inherit nature to want to kick the dog in the morning. So the negative is it sets everyone up to fail and that failure includes death, and death defined is everything you experience every day… Kinda like the tree in the garden where God made a law and then placed with in adam and eve the nature to transgress that law, and then on top of that placed a tempter there,,, there by setting them up to fail, setting them up to enter into the death realm.

but Faith is different from this restraining and failing. Christian faith is not Christian religion. In fact true Christian Faith sets you completely free from christian religion ( laws )

Christian faith is the ability to see yourself other than in the light of the dead guy on the day of your funeral…

Christian faith is the ability to see yourself as blameless before the law that defined your sin inside, not because God looks at you and says ” boys will be boys,” as if He overlooks the sin, but because He gave your new nature back which has never sinned.

Christian faith is the returning back into God before there even was a law and this is the lake of fire and brimstone.

talk about your supernatural claims

now that i got that off my chest…

I don’t see any reason to give religion credit for the decline in homicide rates. Europe is much less religious now than it was 600 years ago. I could make the case that secularism deserves some credit, but I think you’re right when you say that humanity is making progress. We’re a species of animal that is still in the process of becoming intelligent. Progress is just what we’d expect.

I am quite sure that their is God and religion is good and right. I do believe that religion must make progress. It’s a schismatic process and ugly but you can sometimes enjoy a good fight.

An often made error is to fail to account for a test of progress when we evaluate religion in historical context. Humanity is making progress. Things are getting better. This change is confusing to people, especially our theocracy. The homicide rate has been in continuous decline for at least 600 years. Per capita calculations can be made in Europe for that long. Christ lives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism#Ethics

So why would you care about your church’s discrimination? Why would you care about the less fortunate? Why do you call cancer and floods tragedies? On what do you base that idea? Where did good and evil come from?

Without God, nature simply IS. There is no good and no evil. You have no right or position to use any kind of ethical language.

Don’t glom onto the faith you have rejected to construct a moral foundation from which to attack it because it cannot stand without some transcendent truth which cannot exist without a transcendent creator.

You are obviously smart enough to choose whether you believe or don’t.
Be intellectually honest at least.