Personman - Latest Comments on Trilemma http://personman.com/?disp=comments en-US http://backend.userland.com/rss 60 gringo [Member] in response to: Trilemma Thu, 08 Nov 2007 06:22:06 +0000 [Member] c78876@http://personman.com/ <p>&#8220;However, so that we do not offend them, go to the sea and throw in a hook, and take the first fish that comes up; and when you open its mouth, you will find a shekel. Take that and give it to them for you and Me.&#8221; - Matthew 17:27</p> “However, so that we do not offend them, go to the sea and throw in a hook, and take the first fish that comes up; and when you open its mouth, you will find a shekel. Take that and give it to them for you and Me.” - Matthew 17:27

]]> http://personman.com/trilemma#c78876 dan [Member] in response to: Trilemma Wed, 07 Nov 2007 20:53:54 +0000 [Member] c76611@http://personman.com/ <p>Raul,<br /> I&#8217;m looking at the 20 Arguments for the Existence of God. I&#8217;d like to make a full post dealing with each one, but I&#8217;m not sure I&#8217;ll get to it soon. I read the first two and they both (as well as #6) boil down to &#8220;everything is caused/change by something else". God sounds like a good cause/agent, but it&#8217;s all too easy to ask the question &#8220;Who caused/changed God?&#8221; I know the answer is to say that God is eternal and unchanging, but if we have to make an exception to the rule for God, why not cut out the middle man and make the exception for the universe (or admit that the rules aren&#8217;t really true or useful)?</p> Raul,
I’m looking at the 20 Arguments for the Existence of God. I’d like to make a full post dealing with each one, but I’m not sure I’ll get to it soon. I read the first two and they both (as well as #6) boil down to “everything is caused/change by something else". God sounds like a good cause/agent, but it’s all too easy to ask the question “Who caused/changed God?” I know the answer is to say that God is eternal and unchanging, but if we have to make an exception to the rule for God, why not cut out the middle man and make the exception for the universe (or admit that the rules aren’t really true or useful)?

]]> http://personman.com/trilemma#c76611 Brendon [Visitor] in response to: Trilemma Wed, 07 Nov 2007 17:39:45 +0000 Brendon [Visitor] c75864@http://personman.com/ <p>One thing I forgot to add! Personally, I find it questionable to assume that the notion of willingness to die for the truth is a _good thing_.</p> <p>There are many things in this world that are true and worth defending. But laying my life on the line would not make that truth more or less true, nor necessarily be the right thing to do.</p> <p>Also, willingness to die for the truth can sometime be labeled as &#8220;martyrdom", a concept I think we should be wary of openly embracing. We have unfortunately witnessed its fruits all too well. </p> One thing I forgot to add! Personally, I find it questionable to assume that the notion of willingness to die for the truth is a _good thing_.

There are many things in this world that are true and worth defending. But laying my life on the line would not make that truth more or less true, nor necessarily be the right thing to do.

Also, willingness to die for the truth can sometime be labeled as “martyrdom", a concept I think we should be wary of openly embracing. We have unfortunately witnessed its fruits all too well.

]]> http://personman.com/trilemma#c75864 Brendon [Visitor] in response to: Trilemma Wed, 07 Nov 2007 17:25:57 +0000 Brendon [Visitor] c75831@http://personman.com/ <p>So when Jesus said &#8220;But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.&#8221; in Matt 7:14 (NIV) he meant &#8220;few&#8221; as in billions/30% of the world population? That&#8217;s a &#8220;few"?</p> <p>Much of your positive claim regarding Jesus could also be made of the prophet Mohammed. In fact, Islam is now one of the world&#8217;s fastest growing faiths (~21% world population vs. Christianity&#8217;s ~33%) . So if might makes right, shall we say, then what shall we say about Islam?</p> <p>Also, take into account that popular belief doesn&#8217;t automatically translate to a reasonable sign of truth. For example, if statistics gathered by Jon D. Miller (<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/30/science/30profile.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/30/science/30profile.html</a>) are correct, 1 in 5 Americans think the sun orbits the earth. Such a percentage of belief hardly shakes or shapes our understanding of planetary orbits.</p> <p>I won&#8217;t deny Jesus had some good things to say. But to claim that his teaching were somehow unique, special, revolutionary, or necessary, is to turn a blind eye to history as well as evolved capacity for ethical and compassioniate behavior (not to say we can&#8217;t be savage jerks as well, it&#8217;s a mixed bag).</p> <p>Cheers,<br /> Brendon</p> So when Jesus said “But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” in Matt 7:14 (NIV) he meant “few” as in billions/30% of the world population? That’s a “few"?

Much of your positive claim regarding Jesus could also be made of the prophet Mohammed. In fact, Islam is now one of the world’s fastest growing faiths (~21% world population vs. Christianity’s ~33%) . So if might makes right, shall we say, then what shall we say about Islam?

Also, take into account that popular belief doesn’t automatically translate to a reasonable sign of truth. For example, if statistics gathered by Jon D. Miller (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/30/science/30profile.html) are correct, 1 in 5 Americans think the sun orbits the earth. Such a percentage of belief hardly shakes or shapes our understanding of planetary orbits.

I won’t deny Jesus had some good things to say. But to claim that his teaching were somehow unique, special, revolutionary, or necessary, is to turn a blind eye to history as well as evolved capacity for ethical and compassioniate behavior (not to say we can’t be savage jerks as well, it’s a mixed bag).

Cheers,
Brendon

]]> http://personman.com/trilemma#c75831 Raul Nidoy [Visitor] in response to: Trilemma Wed, 07 Nov 2007 16:55:58 +0000 Raul Nidoy [Visitor] c75733@http://personman.com/ <p>Everyone is free to think that Jesus was a liar or a lunatic. But 30% of present world population, billions of people, have read the biblical evidence in favor of his truthfulness: according to several eye-witness accounts, Jesus opted for death in defense of the truth. And he is acclaimed as a moral leader and a good ethical example. </p> <p>The evidence has to be weighed very seriously because the questions Jesus raises are all important. </p> Everyone is free to think that Jesus was a liar or a lunatic. But 30% of present world population, billions of people, have read the biblical evidence in favor of his truthfulness: according to several eye-witness accounts, Jesus opted for death in defense of the truth. And he is acclaimed as a moral leader and a good ethical example.

The evidence has to be weighed very seriously because the questions Jesus raises are all important.

]]> http://personman.com/trilemma#c75733 Brendon [Visitor] in response to: Trilemma Wed, 07 Nov 2007 13:07:03 +0000 Brendon [Visitor] c74977@http://personman.com/ <p>Correction, I meant &#8220;inspiration of Joseph Smith&#8221;</p> Correction, I meant “inspiration of Joseph Smith”

]]> http://personman.com/trilemma#c74977 Brendon [Visitor] in response to: Trilemma Wed, 07 Nov 2007 13:05:18 +0000 Brendon [Visitor] c74968@http://personman.com/ <p>Does evidence of branch dividians having lived in Waco, or Mormons living in Utah, or people&#8217;s temples members having been in Guayna offer any shred of evidence as to the divinity of David Koresh, Jim Jones, or the inspiration of David Koresh? I don&#8217;t think so.</p> Does evidence of branch dividians having lived in Waco, or Mormons living in Utah, or people’s temples members having been in Guayna offer any shred of evidence as to the divinity of David Koresh, Jim Jones, or the inspiration of David Koresh? I don’t think so.

]]> http://personman.com/trilemma#c74968 Raul Nidoy [Visitor] in response to: Trilemma Tue, 06 Nov 2007 15:41:07 +0000 Raul Nidoy [Visitor] c69775@http://personman.com/ <p>Yes, I believe many things are possible, but I think those who have &#8220;intuited&#8221; the existence of God and Jesus&#8217; divinity have in fact based their thinking on the available evidence, or on what is most probable. </p> <p>Imho there is a wealth of evidence on the historicity of the gospel accounts on Jesus and what he said: Here is summary: <a href="http://www.apologetics.com/default.jsp?bodycontent=/articles/historical_apologetics/habermas-nt.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.apologetics.com/default.jsp?bodycontent=/articles/historical_apologetics/habermas-nt.html</a></p> <p>The eyewitness accounts are backed up by historians such as Pliny the Younger who reported in the 2nd century that the early Christians were singing hymns to Jesus &#8220;as to a god&#8221;</p> <p>On the existence of God my favorite is this: <a href="http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-existence.htm" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-existence.htm</a></p> Yes, I believe many things are possible, but I think those who have “intuited” the existence of God and Jesus’ divinity have in fact based their thinking on the available evidence, or on what is most probable.

Imho there is a wealth of evidence on the historicity of the gospel accounts on Jesus and what he said: Here is summary: http://www.apologetics.com/default.jsp?bodycontent=/articles/historical_apologetics/habermas-nt.html

The eyewitness accounts are backed up by historians such as Pliny the Younger who reported in the 2nd century that the early Christians were singing hymns to Jesus “as to a god”

On the existence of God my favorite is this: http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-existence.htm

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