Personman - Latest Comments on Atheism http://personman.com/?disp=comments en-US http://backend.userland.com/rss 60 dan [Member] in response to: Atheism Thu, 20 May 2010 10:53:33 +0000 [Member] c84945@http://personman.com/ <p>Hunter,<br /> Thanks for your concern. I appreciate your willingness to discuss these issues and I&#8217;ll try to answer your questions in the same spirit with which you asked them.</p> <p>1. Maybe you can provide some specific counterexamples, but I think every aspect of human morality could have plausibly evolved. Many of the moral values that we cherish are also shared by animals: fairness, the affection and devotion between a parent and child and putting the interests of the group ahead of the individual. We are a social species and like other social species, we&#8217;ve evolved a sense of what helps social groups to succeed.</p> <p>2. I don&#8217;t feel the need to provide evidence against any gods. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. I&#8217;m just saying that I don&#8217;t believe any of the evidence offered for gods, including the cosmological argument. It&#8217;s an argument from ignorance. Just because none of us knows for sure how the universe began does not mean that your preferred supernatural explanation is true by default.</p> <p>3. Even if the gospel writers were attempting to convey history as they understood it, that doesn&#8217;t mean that they&#8217;re reliable. And history shows that promoters of a religion are willing to stretch the truth and their audiences are willing to be misled. Surely you don&#8217;t need me to provide examples of this.</p> <p>I really need to write an article about Pascal&#8217;s Wager. It&#8217;s get put to me so often and I&#8217;d like to be able to link to my response. In brief, it presents a false dilemma between atheism and Christianity. There are actually 1000s of other options. What if you die and meet Allah or Krishna? Should you believe in them, too, just to be safe? Would a god be satisfied with someone who believed in them just to be on the safe side of this wager? Is it really true that you have &#8220;nothing to lose&#8221; by devoting your life to a fantasy? Even if I accepted your premise, is it possible for me to force myself to believe something that has no good evidence? Doesn&#8217;t Pascal&#8217;s Wager just create an arms race between religions to see which can come up with the best heaven and worst hell?</p> <p>If you have any actual evidence for the truth of your religion&#8217;s supernatural claims, I&#8217;m happy to hear you out.</p> Hunter,
Thanks for your concern. I appreciate your willingness to discuss these issues and I’ll try to answer your questions in the same spirit with which you asked them.

1. Maybe you can provide some specific counterexamples, but I think every aspect of human morality could have plausibly evolved. Many of the moral values that we cherish are also shared by animals: fairness, the affection and devotion between a parent and child and putting the interests of the group ahead of the individual. We are a social species and like other social species, we’ve evolved a sense of what helps social groups to succeed.

2. I don’t feel the need to provide evidence against any gods. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. I’m just saying that I don’t believe any of the evidence offered for gods, including the cosmological argument. It’s an argument from ignorance. Just because none of us knows for sure how the universe began does not mean that your preferred supernatural explanation is true by default.

3. Even if the gospel writers were attempting to convey history as they understood it, that doesn’t mean that they’re reliable. And history shows that promoters of a religion are willing to stretch the truth and their audiences are willing to be misled. Surely you don’t need me to provide examples of this.

I really need to write an article about Pascal’s Wager. It’s get put to me so often and I’d like to be able to link to my response. In brief, it presents a false dilemma between atheism and Christianity. There are actually 1000s of other options. What if you die and meet Allah or Krishna? Should you believe in them, too, just to be safe? Would a god be satisfied with someone who believed in them just to be on the safe side of this wager? Is it really true that you have “nothing to lose” by devoting your life to a fantasy? Even if I accepted your premise, is it possible for me to force myself to believe something that has no good evidence? Doesn’t Pascal’s Wager just create an arms race between religions to see which can come up with the best heaven and worst hell?

If you have any actual evidence for the truth of your religion’s supernatural claims, I’m happy to hear you out.

]]> http://personman.com/atheism#c84945 Hunter [Visitor] in response to: Atheism Thu, 20 May 2010 09:38:18 +0000 Hunter [Visitor] c84944@http://personman.com/ <p>PS: Also, allow me to refer to Pascal&#8217;s Wager, which says that even though the existence of God cannot be determined through reason, a person should wager as though God exists, because living life accordingly has everything to gain, and nothing to lose. </p> <p>While I do not mean for anybody to convert to just any religion (nor did Pascal), this, at the VERY least, is a bare-minimum reason to believe in God.</p> PS: Also, allow me to refer to Pascal’s Wager, which says that even though the existence of God cannot be determined through reason, a person should wager as though God exists, because living life accordingly has everything to gain, and nothing to lose.

While I do not mean for anybody to convert to just any religion (nor did Pascal), this, at the VERY least, is a bare-minimum reason to believe in God.

]]> http://personman.com/atheism#c84944 Hunter [Visitor] in response to: Atheism Thu, 20 May 2010 09:35:50 +0000 Hunter [Visitor] c84943@http://personman.com/ <p>First, i am sorry to hear of your &#8220;losing of religion,&#8221; and pray that you come back to the faith. </p> <p>While I realize I am not responding in great detail (and this is 3 years after its publication), I feel I must do so anyway:</p> <p>1. How could our sense of morality have possibly &#8220;evolved&#8221; over time unless there was some original standard for humans to look to or to know within themselves (which God has put in us as we are made in the Imago Dei)? I skimmed your &#8220;Language of God&#8221; article, and saw &#8220;irreducible complexity,&#8221; which seems somewhat relevant - though it is not a physical body part, how could morality (something) come from nothing if not from a supernatural intelligent designer? (Any issues we DO have either in the system of life/nature or within humanity comes from our sinful - fallen - nature).</p> <p>2. &#8220;But now I think that saying God is the first cause doesn&#8217;t really get us anywhere.&#8221; This does not provide any true evidence against God; it merely shows that you no longer believe in God as the triune, infinite and personal, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent creator.</p> <p>3. Historical and religious documents DO NOT (necessarily (:..) HAVE DIFFERENT PURPOSES! Most of the Bible (a RELIGIOUS document) is historical narrative, and in the beginning of Luke, it is stated by Luke that he did all of the investigating that he could to find out as much truth as he could concerning the God-man, Jesus Christ - which shows that he WAS trying to write what became a part of the Gospels with as much investigative truth as possible (while also writing it to show others spiritual truth). </p> <p>I hope you take these things into consideration, and i pray that I have dealt with these issues with kindness and respect.</p> <p>Again, i pray that you come to know Christ as your Lord and savior again, for your intellect is great.</p> <p>-Hunter</p> First, i am sorry to hear of your “losing of religion,” and pray that you come back to the faith.

While I realize I am not responding in great detail (and this is 3 years after its publication), I feel I must do so anyway:

1. How could our sense of morality have possibly “evolved” over time unless there was some original standard for humans to look to or to know within themselves (which God has put in us as we are made in the Imago Dei)? I skimmed your “Language of God” article, and saw “irreducible complexity,” which seems somewhat relevant - though it is not a physical body part, how could morality (something) come from nothing if not from a supernatural intelligent designer? (Any issues we DO have either in the system of life/nature or within humanity comes from our sinful - fallen - nature).

2. “But now I think that saying God is the first cause doesn’t really get us anywhere.” This does not provide any true evidence against God; it merely shows that you no longer believe in God as the triune, infinite and personal, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent creator.

3. Historical and religious documents DO NOT (necessarily (:..) HAVE DIFFERENT PURPOSES! Most of the Bible (a RELIGIOUS document) is historical narrative, and in the beginning of Luke, it is stated by Luke that he did all of the investigating that he could to find out as much truth as he could concerning the God-man, Jesus Christ - which shows that he WAS trying to write what became a part of the Gospels with as much investigative truth as possible (while also writing it to show others spiritual truth).

I hope you take these things into consideration, and i pray that I have dealt with these issues with kindness and respect.

Again, i pray that you come to know Christ as your Lord and savior again, for your intellect is great.

-Hunter

]]> http://personman.com/atheism#c84943 dan [Member] in response to: Atheism Mon, 10 Sep 2007 00:10:39 +0000 [Member] c45048@http://personman.com/ <p>Jeannie, <br /> It&#8217;s not about being disappointed in Christians. I always knew that people weren&#8217;t perfect. I simply no longer buy the central stories of Christianity. As far as I can see, there&#8217;s no good reason to think there&#8217;s a God or that Jesus came back from the dead. Every religion has stories that people made up to try to make converts.</p> <p>After I die my body will go into the ground or be burned. As for the rest of me, it will just be gone, much like it was before I was born. The idea of an afterlife is just another story that our ancestors told to comfort each other and deal with their fear of death.</p> <p>If you want to know more about what I think, there are other posts on this site about it. Here is the category that they&#8217;re in:</p> <p><a href="http://brendoman.com/dbc?cat=20" rel="nofollow ugc">http://brendoman.com/dbc?cat=20</a></p> Jeannie,
It’s not about being disappointed in Christians. I always knew that people weren’t perfect. I simply no longer buy the central stories of Christianity. As far as I can see, there’s no good reason to think there’s a God or that Jesus came back from the dead. Every religion has stories that people made up to try to make converts.

After I die my body will go into the ground or be burned. As for the rest of me, it will just be gone, much like it was before I was born. The idea of an afterlife is just another story that our ancestors told to comfort each other and deal with their fear of death.

If you want to know more about what I think, there are other posts on this site about it. Here is the category that they’re in:

http://brendoman.com/dbc?cat=20

]]> http://personman.com/atheism#c45048 Jeanie Stephens [Visitor] in response to: Atheism Sun, 09 Sep 2007 16:05:23 +0000 Jeanie Stephens [Visitor] c45045@http://personman.com/ <p>Danny, after growing up in a household of people who didn&#8217;t live for Christ I am thankful to have a personal relationship with him. Organized religion and alot of &#8220;good Christians&#8221; have hurt me badly over the years and continue to do so. I am sure that I have hurt people and didn&#8217;t know it and am sad about this. You have always been one of my favorite child of my friends. It does get exhausting because we are a bunch of self centered people who don&#8217;t put Christ first. I hope as an older Christian that we have not hurt you in any way to make you not believe. We are capable of doing so! We still love you and you are the one who has to decide what you believe in. I am interested in knowing how you feel about where you go when you die. I&#8217;ve never heard an atheist&#8217;s point of view of what they do believe in. This is my first comment on a blog. You know me. I am not a technology queen. Sincerely, Jeanie Stephens. </p> Danny, after growing up in a household of people who didn’t live for Christ I am thankful to have a personal relationship with him. Organized religion and alot of “good Christians” have hurt me badly over the years and continue to do so. I am sure that I have hurt people and didn’t know it and am sad about this. You have always been one of my favorite child of my friends. It does get exhausting because we are a bunch of self centered people who don’t put Christ first. I hope as an older Christian that we have not hurt you in any way to make you not believe. We are capable of doing so! We still love you and you are the one who has to decide what you believe in. I am interested in knowing how you feel about where you go when you die. I’ve never heard an atheist’s point of view of what they do believe in. This is my first comment on a blog. You know me. I am not a technology queen. Sincerely, Jeanie Stephens.

]]> http://personman.com/atheism#c45045 dan [Member] in response to: Atheism Thu, 16 Aug 2007 23:08:26 +0000 [Member] c44889@http://personman.com/ <p>Dan, nice to hear from you. I plan on writing some more about this here, so stay tuned. In the meantime, maybe you would like to tell a bit about why you do believe in God.</p> Dan, nice to hear from you. I plan on writing some more about this here, so stay tuned. In the meantime, maybe you would like to tell a bit about why you do believe in God.

]]> http://personman.com/atheism#c44889 dan c [Visitor] in response to: Atheism Thu, 16 Aug 2007 15:11:22 +0000 dan c [Visitor] c44886@http://personman.com/ <p>Danny I stopped by to read what is going on in your life, and perhaps my absents should keep me silent, but alas it won&#8217;t. When I read this post my heart sank&#8211;I hope that doesn&#8217;t sound condescending because I truly do not mean it that way. I am sure this was a hard thing to write and respect your courage in doing so. I too have wrestled with similar questions, and I would like to know more about how/why you came to your conclusions. </p> Danny I stopped by to read what is going on in your life, and perhaps my absents should keep me silent, but alas it won’t. When I read this post my heart sank–I hope that doesn’t sound condescending because I truly do not mean it that way. I am sure this was a hard thing to write and respect your courage in doing so. I too have wrestled with similar questions, and I would like to know more about how/why you came to your conclusions.

]]> http://personman.com/atheism#c44886 peter [Member] in response to: Atheism Mon, 13 Aug 2007 17:32:09 +0000 [Member] c44863@http://personman.com/ <p>This is why I have always been opposed to youth ministry.</p> This is why I have always been opposed to youth ministry.

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