Personman - Latest Comments on Book review: The Language of God by Francis Collins http://personman.com/?disp=comments en-US http://backend.userland.com/rss 60 Wilmer R. Witte [Visitor] in response to: Book review: The Language of God by Francis Collins Mon, 19 Oct 2009 23:32:50 +0000 Wilmer R. Witte [Visitor] c83811@http://personman.com/ <p>I have not made a detailed study of the cosmos nor of the terrestrial origins.<br /> I do understand how some investigations lead to evolution. To me evolution is still a theory, not a doctrine. There are too many assumptions and self-deceptions in the theory.<br /> Evolution cannot order its own purpose nor origin. Or is the origin a matter of eternity? So, if this is true, then nothing has been discovered which is reliable for scientific advancement.</p> I have not made a detailed study of the cosmos nor of the terrestrial origins.
I do understand how some investigations lead to evolution. To me evolution is still a theory, not a doctrine. There are too many assumptions and self-deceptions in the theory.
Evolution cannot order its own purpose nor origin. Or is the origin a matter of eternity? So, if this is true, then nothing has been discovered which is reliable for scientific advancement.

]]> http://personman.com/book_review_the_language_of_god_by_franc#c83811 dan [Member] in response to: Book review: The Language of God by Francis Collins Sat, 02 Jun 2007 23:52:41 +0000 [Member] c44469@http://personman.com/ <p>That&#8217;s very nice of you to say, Doug.</p> That’s very nice of you to say, Doug.

]]> http://personman.com/book_review_the_language_of_god_by_franc#c44469 doug [Member] in response to: Book review: The Language of God by Francis Collins Sat, 02 Jun 2007 23:49:26 +0000 [Member] c44468@http://personman.com/ <p>I haven&#8217;t read Collins&#8217; book yet, but I&#8217;ve read several reviews and this one is the best written yet. Your responses are well-argued and the examples memorable and well-chosen ("a New Yorker in Missouri&#8221; paralleled with the other ethnic minorities you list is a really interesting and provocative example, I think). You could probably get some cool free stuff from publishers if you offer to review their materials, and I&#8217;d like to read more reviews from you.<br /> </p> I haven’t read Collins’ book yet, but I’ve read several reviews and this one is the best written yet. Your responses are well-argued and the examples memorable and well-chosen ("a New Yorker in Missouri” paralleled with the other ethnic minorities you list is a really interesting and provocative example, I think). You could probably get some cool free stuff from publishers if you offer to review their materials, and I’d like to read more reviews from you.

]]> http://personman.com/book_review_the_language_of_god_by_franc#c44468 dan [Member] in response to: Book review: The Language of God by Francis Collins Fri, 01 Jun 2007 01:12:33 +0000 [Member] c44460@http://personman.com/ <p>There are a couple of ways that you could explain our drive toward out-group kindness (keeping in mind that it&#8217;s not a universal human trait). First, maybe we lived in small groups so much, with very little contact with neighboring troops and villages, that we just generalized the idea of being good to people around us. Second, and this seems more likely to me, out-group kindness is a product of our higher minds. It&#8217;s a recent development and it hasn&#8217;t been spread to all of us fully. These are some good questions you&#8217;re asking. My main point in bringing it up wasn&#8217;t to explain it fully. Scientists are still actively trying to do that. My point was that evolution is a explanation that could be more probably than a supernatural cause. </p> <p>The Wikipedia article on <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality#Development_of_morality" rel="nofollow ugc">morality</a> looks like a good jumping off point for further reading.</p> There are a couple of ways that you could explain our drive toward out-group kindness (keeping in mind that it’s not a universal human trait). First, maybe we lived in small groups so much, with very little contact with neighboring troops and villages, that we just generalized the idea of being good to people around us. Second, and this seems more likely to me, out-group kindness is a product of our higher minds. It’s a recent development and it hasn’t been spread to all of us fully. These are some good questions you’re asking. My main point in bringing it up wasn’t to explain it fully. Scientists are still actively trying to do that. My point was that evolution is a explanation that could be more probably than a supernatural cause.

The Wikipedia article on morality looks like a good jumping off point for further reading.

]]> http://personman.com/book_review_the_language_of_god_by_franc#c44460 matt [Member] in response to: Book review: The Language of God by Francis Collins Fri, 01 Jun 2007 00:45:27 +0000 [Member] c44459@http://personman.com/ <p>Is there any argument that out-group kindness, generosity, or forgiveness has any evolutionary benefit or evolutionary roots? Or even that it has any societal benefit? I don&#8217;t see much extension of kind treatment toward outsiders outside of intentional and fairly radical religious/moral organizations. These ideas have to come from somewhere. Maybe they&#8217;re the process of people sitting around thinking deeply. But it&#8217;s hard for me to see them as something innately inside us. Mostly.</p> Is there any argument that out-group kindness, generosity, or forgiveness has any evolutionary benefit or evolutionary roots? Or even that it has any societal benefit? I don’t see much extension of kind treatment toward outsiders outside of intentional and fairly radical religious/moral organizations. These ideas have to come from somewhere. Maybe they’re the process of people sitting around thinking deeply. But it’s hard for me to see them as something innately inside us. Mostly.

]]> http://personman.com/book_review_the_language_of_god_by_franc#c44459 dan [Member] in response to: Book review: The Language of God by Francis Collins Thu, 31 May 2007 23:37:58 +0000 [Member] c44458@http://personman.com/ <p>That brings up the distinction between in-group and out-group morality. Your sneaky evil Klingons might attack other groups, but if they didn&#8217;t get along inside their own group, then they would self-destruct. A group that was kind to its own and ruthless to outsiders would succeed. As the world has gotten smaller we&#8217;ve extended our kind treatment more toward the entire species. We&#8217;re not there yet. Just talk to a Sunni in Iran or a Hindu in Pakistan or a New Yorker in Missouri and you can see that we still have a bias against out-groupers.</p> <p>I read most of that article. It seems to be saying that evolved morality wouldn&#8217;t be totally consistent. I wouldn&#8217;t expect it to be. I would expect God-given morality to be consistent, but not evolved morality.</p> That brings up the distinction between in-group and out-group morality. Your sneaky evil Klingons might attack other groups, but if they didn’t get along inside their own group, then they would self-destruct. A group that was kind to its own and ruthless to outsiders would succeed. As the world has gotten smaller we’ve extended our kind treatment more toward the entire species. We’re not there yet. Just talk to a Sunni in Iran or a Hindu in Pakistan or a New Yorker in Missouri and you can see that we still have a bias against out-groupers.

I read most of that article. It seems to be saying that evolved morality wouldn’t be totally consistent. I wouldn’t expect it to be. I would expect God-given morality to be consistent, but not evolved morality.

]]> http://personman.com/book_review_the_language_of_god_by_franc#c44458 matt [Member] in response to: Book review: The Language of God by Francis Collins Thu, 31 May 2007 15:23:35 +0000 [Member] c44457@http://personman.com/ <p>I&#8217;m not sure the article adds much to the conversation. But I&#8217;d be interested to know what you think.</p> I’m not sure the article adds much to the conversation. But I’d be interested to know what you think.

]]> http://personman.com/book_review_the_language_of_god_by_franc#c44457 matt [Member] in response to: Book review: The Language of God by Francis Collins Thu, 31 May 2007 15:02:53 +0000 [Member] c44456@http://personman.com/ <p>I&#8217;m not sure kindness, generosity, or forgiveness would offer much survival advantage. Maybe within the tribe, if those were the characteristics that were valued or attractive to the opposite sex. But soon the Klingons are going to come over the hill and smash your forgiving skulls in and take your women. Their aggressive, sneaky, ruthless DNA will live on. </p> <p>Seems that most modern societal structures are in place as a check against our innate inclinations.</p> <p>Interesting that our &#8220;shared morality&#8221; has little to do with how we actually behave or how we want to behave. Have we evolved some need for guilt I wonder?</p> <p>Two links for you: </p> <p>Internet monk has a new podcast out, Coffee cup apologetics. His second episode covers some of what you&#8217;ve talked about. It may be a rehash of what you&#8217;ve already read, he mentions zacharias and lewis. But I think what he says briefly about the use of apologetics is good. <a href="http://www.internetmonk.com/imonkaudio/coffeecupapologetics2.mp3" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.internetmonk.com/imonkaudio/coffeecupapologetics2.mp3</a></p> <p>There&#8217;s an article in the recent Discover magazine about this. I started it at school and then had to turn the magazine back in to the library (although something inside me told me to just keep it). Now that I found it online, I&#8217;ll finish it.<br /> <a href="http://discovermagazine.com/2007/may/the-discover-interview-marc-hauser/?searchterm=morality%20evolution" rel="nofollow ugc">http://discovermagazine.com/2007/may/the-discover-interview-marc-hauser/?searchterm=morality%20evolution</a></p> I’m not sure kindness, generosity, or forgiveness would offer much survival advantage. Maybe within the tribe, if those were the characteristics that were valued or attractive to the opposite sex. But soon the Klingons are going to come over the hill and smash your forgiving skulls in and take your women. Their aggressive, sneaky, ruthless DNA will live on.

Seems that most modern societal structures are in place as a check against our innate inclinations.

Interesting that our “shared morality” has little to do with how we actually behave or how we want to behave. Have we evolved some need for guilt I wonder?

Two links for you:

Internet monk has a new podcast out, Coffee cup apologetics. His second episode covers some of what you’ve talked about. It may be a rehash of what you’ve already read, he mentions zacharias and lewis. But I think what he says briefly about the use of apologetics is good. http://www.internetmonk.com/imonkaudio/coffeecupapologetics2.mp3

There’s an article in the recent Discover magazine about this. I started it at school and then had to turn the magazine back in to the library (although something inside me told me to just keep it). Now that I found it online, I’ll finish it.
http://discovermagazine.com/2007/may/the-discover-interview-marc-hauser/?searchterm=morality%20evolution

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